17 posts tagged “mars saturn”
This sounds like the guy has Mars Saturn or Mars Pluto to me... (Upon attempting to figure out a chart since he mentions his birthday, looks like he has Mars semisextile both planets.)
"There was a time in my undergraduate studies when I decided to reject everything considered masculine. I had just started learning about feminist philosophies and the associated feminine ideals: pacifism rather than violence, gentleness rather than strength, and love and the erotic rather than pain and competition. My readings convinced me that maleness was something to diminish rather than champion. The patriarchal structure of societies seemed to be the root cause of oppression and warfare. Matriarchal societies, as illustrated in my books, were about cooperation, farming, and a communal society of ideals. Matriarchal religions, worshiping a feminine goddess or the sacred feminine, were more about love and the erotic, and less about hellfire and beating the loving snot out of heathens.
Additionally, I had a thing for scarily smart women (still do) and a lot of them were getting into that avenue of philospophy.
I learned a lot about gender and women during that period of my life, but I remember feeling disquieted, like I was hungry and wasn't feeding. Riding wildly through D.C. on my motorcycle provided some sustinence, but it wasn't quite my thing. A ticket for reckless riding stopped that sort of nonsense quickly.
One evening, while drunk, I received a text from a friend that set me off. I don't even remember what the text was about, but I do remember pounding on my dorm door until it busted off the hinges and bounced off the opposing wall. My hands hurt. The door was trashed. People were coming out of their rooms to find out what the hell was going on. And, I felt good. Real good.
I've always been a violent sort. My mother used to joke that our phone number was on the principal's speed dial. Weekly meetings with school staff about my fighting became routine for both my mother and I. The kids in the school yard had a deal - they'd get to make my life miserable and in return, I'd get to beat the snot out of them.
My mother tried her best to channel this aggression into sports. I played ice hockey, but preferred bashing people into the walls instead of playing with the puck. In middle school and high school, I wrestled. I also tried football, but found that my size hadn't caught up to my aggressive tendencies. The bigger boys made short work of my knee and that was the end of my sporting career.I needed an outlet, otherwise I was just going to take Hellspawn, put him in the car, and drive off without telling anyone where we went. Getting into tussles at parties helped a bit, but it ruined my clothes and there was always the risk of hurting someone badly and being on the hook financially. While flipping through the net some time in the early morning, while taking a break from watching Hellspawn sleep and doing homework, I stumbled on some pictures provided by the Society for Creative Anachronism. The pictures showed folks in full metal regalia pounding on each other with sticks.
I looked at the pictures, and corresponding movies, for hours. I wanted to do that. I needed to do that.At 26, I've come to terms with my violent tendencies. But, I've tempered them, and redirected myself to the appropriate activities. That's ultimately the crux of being a man - knowing the strength and dangeousness of the masculine and using them wisely. A real man doesn't beat his wife and kids. He beats other people with sticks within a structured environment. A real man embraces his competative nature, but cautions it with humility and a bit of chilvarly thrown in."
So I'm listening to NPR about "can an abuser be reformed?" So far the opinion of the experts is, "Probably not. Most of them don't want to, and if you send them to a court program, that just means they stop abusing this one and go on to abuse the next girl."
Then about midway through, a guy named Tom who is an abuser calls in. Yes, he grew up in an abusive family. This guy wanted to stop pushing/shoving/nearly punching/choking his wife, he's ashamed of having done it. he's voluntarily gone to residential programs and anger management to stop doing it. He says it makes him feel powerless. He hasn't done it for five years.
And even he says that the urge to hit never goes away.
When they asked him if he'd advise someone else's wife to leave, he said he'd tell his wife to leave if he wasn't getting help. He calls it "next to impossible to overcome it." And also, "It's something I have to deal with for the rest of my life, so I have to believe that there is a way to overcome this."
Another interesting point: he says he was not a violent person and didn't get into fights before he was married, and had no idea he could be that way.
In related news, the comments on this article on whether or not it's acceptable for a woman to hit a guy (answer: no) are interesting, especially given the number of women who admit to have done it in the past and wish they hadn't.
Here's a pretty good one on this.
All the houses thus involved will be under developmental tension, as Saturn stresses Mars and vice versa. If Saturn rules 5th (Virgo rising most likely) there is a developmental delay or inhibition related to giving of love - which begs you to ask the question "why?" In this case Mars most likely rules the 8th - other's self worth (also related to sexuality) - is there competition with the partner? Does the person feel somehow inferior to one's partner, which results in withholding behavior? How does that affect his/her sexual relationship?
If Saturn rules 7th and Mars 10th, how did the parental modeling (10th) affect one's relationship patterns (7th)? Who taught you that work (10th) always has to get in the way of relationship (7th)?
If Saturn rules 11th and Mars 2nd, how does your not feeling worthy or lovable inhibit you from claiming or receiving what you want?
Through awareness, the archetype can begin to shift - Saturn can change into discipline or wisdom through time - Inhibited Action or Frustrated Desire becomes Disciplined or Resourceful Action. This shift is one productive result of astrological meditation.
Mars represents the method of action: how we need to act in order to be effective in getting what we want. Since Saturn traditionally has to do with delays, blockages and frustration, the classical thought was that if the person has Mars squared (or other hard aspect) by Saturn, his action will likely end in frustration.
This led to descriptions such as frustrated action, suppressed anger, and even impotence. Some said this aspect suggested "cautious and controlled action - driving with brakes on." Others thought that Saturn's ambition and control would dominate Mars, and produce a ruthless character who is extremely controlling (Hitler's chart was given as an example.)
The problem with these descriptions was that they were static and gave no room for growth: In real life, when we have problems we deal with it - you may have to lean into it for a long time, but eventually you solve them - or you quit. Since astrology is not a pronouncement of fate but a pattern of life development (which pretty much has to do with solving problems and growing all the time), there has to be a higher level alternative to this aspect.b) Alternate Manifestation
So we use Saturn's discipline, maturity, perseverance and wisdom and apply it (Mars) to achieve our goals. Noel Tyl called this aspect "indomitable" and "resourceful" - these describe the staying power and street smart of Saturn enhancing Mars. We could expect that with knowledge and experience, this will become more and more applicable.This means one of my key challenges is that I may have a hard time developing a strong sense of self, as well as I may have a fear or insecurity about not being lovable - which leads to not being able to "let love in," so to speak.
That's a good awareness when I'm in relationships with people - how much of their love and appreciation am I "letting in?" By patient introspective process (Mars in Scorpio is in the 8th house - psychological healing) I have worked on these issues, and feel much better about it.
That's just one example involving two houses - when 2nd house is involved, self worth will be the key challenge. 3rd house: the mental process - perhaps depression or anxiety disorder. 4th or 10th house - parental relationship may be challenged. 5th house - self expression and giving love to others. 6th house - cooperating with others at work. 7th house - personal relationships, and so on.
The key with Saturn is that we get better as we accumulate wisdom through experience and learning. Mars' method of action (in my case, Scorpio Mars implies research, and control through knowing) will be greatly enhanced as the years go by, so long as we keep learning how to do things better.Some examples of Mars-Saturn hard aspect: concentration camp survivor Viktor Frankl (square), Walt Disney (conjunction), Milton Erickson (conjunction), Al Gore (conjunction), astrologer Isabel Hickey (square - she wrote "Saturn most guide Mars"), Julia Roberts (square), Bruce Willis (opposition - the "indomitable" image is there in his action movie roles), Paramahansa Yogananda (opposition).
Many of them have built enduring work through patient effort. There are many athletes with this combination, so Saturn doesn't seem to affect the physical energy necessarily.
This is great! Okay, not the bullying, but the analysis.
Anyone who really feels their power and prowess (MARS) has no need to batter people. That right there is a statement of fact. So I would say when you meet a bully they have a Mars problem.
Next, if you have self esteem, you’ve not reason to harm another person’s self esteem so my guess is Mars in hard aspect to one the personal planets, most like the Sun. But this does not mean everyone with Mars square their Sun is a bully!
Saturn in aspect to Mars is frustrating for the individual and may also create a bully but you cannot take this for granted. As an example, the soldier has Saturn in aspect to his Mars and he hunts bullies and tyrants.
I would say a person who gets bullied has similar aspects as the person who bullies, the lesson being you must learn to stand up for yourself.
I am a person who get bullied (to an extent) and when I stand up for myself I get bullied some more. I also get support so here again it smacks of Saturn / Mars.
As for how someone bullies, an internet bully would have Mars associated with Mercury (communication) or perhaps Pluto because they are anonymous. Mars in hard aspect to the Moon might attack women exclusively… etc. You get the idea.
I don't know why I keep reading this Chris Brown/Rihanna stuff. He doesn't even have Mars/Saturn, but as I went through the comments here, I found one particularly chilling comment:
To me, this is always an aspect that screams, "handle with caution." It reminds me of "power corrupts" because on some level, I think it could be very easy to go to the ugly place with it. Not everybody does, and some people put it to good use, but I will always be a little nervous until I find out how they are handling it. It bugs me deeply that our culture gets like this, you know?"Male abusers have no sanction. Full stop. They abuse because that is the epitome of manliness. It is what is underlined in toxic masculinity, a quick shortcut to being seen as a man to pick on those weaker than yourself or perceived as weaker and to tolerate none having access to any power but yourself especially someone “lesser than”. We see the construction of letting them off the hook each time a male celebrity is shown as “pussy whipped” for genuinely loving their partner and wanting to help or sacrifice for their career. We see it when we call movies where the woman is treated like shit and the man indiscriminately kills, man movies and ones where the man still acts like a shit but 10% less so as woman movies that no man would watch because the sheer concentration of women in the audience will somehow leech precious bodily fluids from them. They abuse because they will never receive the backlash that a woman will receive merely for being vocal about rape and abuse."
The final line of the comment is:
"We need to break this toxic idea of masculinity and either replace it with a better idea of masculinity or mostly do away with it and let the new genders define themselves."
Amen to that.
Mars-Saturn
“You learn tolerance and patience when you become famous or you get in a lot of trouble. I work on my self-destructive behaviors. I try to get past them. There’ve been times when I’m very prone toward anger. And if I look at my anger, there’s usually fear behind it. Some sort of fear of something.” –Matt Dillon
You may have these feelings if you have:
- Any aspects in your chart that connect Mars and Saturn (conjunct, sextile, trine, square, opposition, etc.)
- Capricorn emphasis in your chart
- Saturn in Aries
- Saturn in your first house.
Positive traits of Mars-Saturn connections:
- Tons of stamina, drive, and endurance.
- Ambitious.
- Disciplined and organized
- Love hard work and work to accomplish goals, though intermittently
- Work well under pressure, in competition.
Negative traits of Mars-Saturn connections:
- Feel impotent (emotionally…) and out of control, which you really hate. You’re very afraid of being “run over” by other people and need to control them instead, via manipulation and/or attacking first.
- Have issues with masculinity- you just don’t feel like a man/manly enough.
- To deal with that, you either overcompensate and become uber-macho, aggressive, and controlling in your behavior…
- Or you advocate responsibility and let other people control you, and let other people act out your Mars issues. May be attracted to angry/domineering people (especially hetero women choosing this side of the aspect, who may not trust men and project bad things onto them anyway) and become a magnet for abuse.
- May have had very authoritative parents who squashed you, especially your father. Early emotional control/responsibility/discipline went on, too hard. Possible physical mistreatment here.
- This aspect has anger issues galore, which can in some people lead to a tendency towards violence. Exploding temper here.
- May either love fighting on behalf of authority…or against authority.
Poster children for Mars-Saturn:
- Matt Dillon (Saturn conjunct Mars/Sun)
- Farrah Fawcett (Saturn opposed to Mars)
- Ryan O’Neal (Saturn square Mars)
- Hillary Rodham Clinton (Saturn conjunct Mars and square Venus)
Synastry example: Prince Charles and Princess Diana (her Mars conjunct his Saturn)
Qualities of Mars-Saturn synastry:
- Saturn person gives Mars a dose of realism that Mars needs, and helps Mars focus and stay organized. Saturn is fascinated with Mars’s expression, since they can’t do it themselves. Mars can learn to not be so aggressive and learn to look before they leap.
- Obstacles do get thrown in your way. The Mars person will get angry because they want speed and Saturn is slowing them down. Saturn also has a lot more patience than Mars, and Mars doesn’t like being dictated to. Mars can also stampede over Saturn’s feelings. If Saturn can’t deal with its own feelings of inadequacy, Saturn may try to control Mars and put them down.
- Conflict in needs- fear vs. action, moving vs. slow, safe vs. adventure, etc.
- Kind of equates to parent/child or boss/employee in some ways. If this is between a parent and child for real, of the opposite sex, the child can see the parent as a symbol of man/womanhood.
- Marriage can start out passionate and then cool down afterwards, since Mars is passion and Saturn is fear. The Saturn person can withdraw and then Mars hates it when they do.
Suggested Saturnian solutions to this problem:
- Learn to assert yourself in an appropriate (not squashing others, but being loud enough to be heard) manner.
- Believe that you can get what you want without having to resort to doing it “the hard way.” You don’t have to always be controlling/squashing others in order to get things.
- Work on forgiving and letting go of past resentments, so as to chill out your anger.
- Work on understanding your own masculinity and practicing it in a way that puts you in control, but doesn’t turn you into a dictator in order to feel “manly.”
- You have a lot of energy and are attracted to physical jobs, and physical activities, so make sure you have some kind of physical outlet/hobby/exercise in your life for that energy to go towards. Martial arts and competitive things are particularly good. If you are unable to do hard physical work, uh…try World of Warcraft, I guess.
- The Jupiter solution (Jupiter in Aries/1st): Be independent and self-confident, promote yourself. Be adventurous.
Here they are, for those not in attendance/who didn't get a printout. I'm printing one 2-sided page per entry just so it's not a monster post from hell.
Saturn Can Bite Me!
Characteristics, examples, and tips for dealing with
Saturn’s connection to your personal planets.
Notable quotes from astrologers on the subject:
- “Saturn always inclines toward the development of strength through isolation.”
--Liz Greene
- “I don’t know any way of working with Saturn aspects except for the Saturn person, on one hand, to step back and get more detached about their behavior and their fears—it’s necessary for them to face their own fears, instead of trying to project their fears or insecurities onto the other person.” –Stephen Arroyo
- “Aries: You’ll never be brave enough. You’ll fail because you are afraid.
Cancer: You are not loveable enough. Mommy has every right to dislike you.
Leo: You can’t lead anything or anyone. You are wrong to believe that you could.
Capricorn: Daddy always said you’d never amount to anything. You are afraid he is right.” –Beth Turnage.
- “It may be that the path of developing a fully conscious relationship is as valid a spiritual discipline as the path of meditation or yoga—and that, as it is considerably more difficult, its rewards may be proportionally greater in terms of being able to overcome at least the sense of separateness…Perhaps those who are “Saturn-prone” in their relationships sense this, and this is the best path for them.” –Liz Greene
- “It’s true if someone has their Saturn in aspect to one of your planets (particularly the personal planets: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus and Mars), they will have some authority over you. They may be older, more experienced, more educated or whatever form this takes but you can’t tell from the chart how they might express this “advantage.” Will they be a mentor, an oppressor or a combination of those?” –Elsa Panizzon.
General suggestions for handling Saturn that apply to everybody:
- Therapy. Yes, that means you.
- Don’t count on others to solve your emotional problems—it is up to you to do it.
- Don’t listen to what everyone else says and does to figure out what you should be saying and doing. You need to find your own way.
- The “midpoint method:” Find the midpoint between Saturn and the personal planet(s) bugging you, and note its sign and house. Base your solution on what that empty house indicates.
- The “Jupiter method:” Look for where your Jupiter is in your chart by sign and house, and use the traits there to compensate. (More on this below for each one.)
- “Study the natal charts of famous people who have aspects similar to yours. If you have access to a database like AstroDataBank, you can sort by aspects, and find, for example, many famous people who have (or had) Venus in hard aspect to Saturn. Read their biographies, indentify this archetypal pattern and see how they dealt with it. (I will admit that I have not practiced what I preach here, but I think it can open up possibilities for you.”)” –Jeffrey Kishner. Cafeastrology.com also lists celebrities with natal aspects (see online bibliography for the links).
I'll be posting the notes from the presentation I am doing on Monday at Pantheacon here. But since the infinitely long bibliography is already done, I'm posting it first for anyone who needs some Saturnian references.
Bibliography:
Books used to create this presentation:
- Saturn: A New Look at an Old Devil by Liz Greene.
- The Inner Planets by Liz Greene and Howard Sasportas.
- Relating by Liz Greene
- Linda Goodman's Relationship Signs by Linda Goodman and Carolyn Reynolds
- Past Life Astrology by Judy Hall
- Intimate Relationships: The Astrology of Attraction (edited by Joan McEvers). References "Affinities" by Richard Roess.
- Relationships and Life Cycles by Stephen Arroyo
- Planets: The Astrological Tools (edited by Joan McEvers). References "Venus" by Robert Glasscock, "Mars" by Johanna Mitchell, "Saturn" by Gina Ceaglio
- Finding Success in the Horoscope by Jackie Slevin
- Web of Relationships: Spiritual, Karmic and Psychological Bonds (edited by Joan McEvers. References "Child and Parent" by Cornelia Hansen and "Astrology and Past Life Relationships" by Bob Mulligan.
- Astrology for Women (edited by Gloria Star). References "On Singleness: Choosing To Be Me" by Madalyn Hillis-Deneen, "The Impact of Self-Esteem" by Ronnie Gale Dreyer
- Houses: A Contemporary Guide by Gwyneth Bryan.
- Karmic Astrology: Past Lives, Present Loves by Ruth Aharoni
- The Art of Predictive Astrology by Carol Rushman
- Astrology, Karma and Transformation by Stephen Arroyo
- Aspects of Astrology by Sue Tompkins
- Synastry: Understanding the Astrology of Relationships by Rod Suskin.
Articles:
- Article in Mountain Astrologer Dec 2006/Jan 2007- "Jupiter: Your Child's Key To Success" by Doria Gambino.
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2009/02/08/demystifying-astrology-saturn-in-synastry-mentor-or-oppressor/
- http://cafeastrology.com/karmicrelationshipskarma.html
- http://cafeastrology.com/relationship_potential.html
- http://cafeastrology.com/articles/saturninsynastry.html
- http://www.cafeastrology.com/synastry/venus_saturn_aspects.html
- http://www.cafeastrology.com/synastry/mars_saturn_aspects.html
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/10/09/open-question-saturn-in-the-7th-house-would-you-marry-them-how-popular-is-real-love-anyway
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/14/am-i-destined-to-be-unloved-venus-in-scorpio-square-saturn-ruling-the-7th-house/
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/08/05/open-question-regarding-transits-to-the-natal-chart-saturn-square-venus-specifically
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/15/astrology-and-love-venus-saturn-in-relationship-delay-and-deprivation-there-is-more-to-the-story
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/18/venus-and-saturn-in-aspect-and-the-reality-of-love-plus-pisces-imagination-and-transcendence
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/23/astrology-and-love-and-loneliness-taking-the-heat-and-standing-up-for-your-friends/
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2006/06/17/will-i-find-my-soulmate-venus-saturn-conjunction/
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/07/26/astrology-and-children-sun-conjunct-saturn-9-years-old-what-did-you-tell-him/
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/07/26/astrology-and-children-what-if-your-child-has-difficult-aspects-in-their-chart-like-mars-pluto-suggesting-sexual-abuse-and-the-like/
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/06/07/sun-conjunct-saturn-all-grown-up-at-8-years-old/
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/02/18/21-years-old-and-never-had-a-boyfriend-taurus-sun-opposite-saturn-in-scorpio/
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/09/14/humility-its-attractive-and-the-bad-reputation-of-mars-in-aspect-to-saturn-in-astrology/
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/11/23/astrology-and-relationship-too-old-to-leap-redux-saturn-in-aspect-to-mars-in-synastry-happy-capricorn-etc/
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/10/19/astrology-and-the-cock-blocking-phenomena-saturn-in-aspect-to-mars/
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/06/astrology-energy-mars-and-violence-in-nature/
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/01/15/23-year-old-virgin-aries-sun-scorpio-rising/
- http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2006/12/31/astro-twins-the-soldier-and-the-salesman-mars-and-saturn-in-aspect-2/
- http://www.astrologyexplored.com/the-astrology-of-saturn-fear-and-loathing-not-just-in-vegas/
- http://cosmicguidelinesblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/looking-for-partnership-saturn-way.html
- http://sasstrology.com/2008/07/how-to-change-stuck-relational-patterns.html
- http://astrotribe.tribe.net/thread/79e3af8e-f2e4-4fd0-b294-0639b3ccac5b
It starts out as a rundown of the basic astrology, with discussion of certain angles and asteroids (I particularly liked her Juno, Chiron and Persephone writeups), and discusses one person's chart and how she'd treat it in a reading. Relationships and career in the horoscope are discussed.
But the kicker with me, seeing as I am one of these people is...she talks about how do you deal with people with really hard charts, who want something with all their hearts and have nothing but resistance in their charts to getting it?
Points she makes that I like:
- Don't ask will you get married, ask what do you need in a relationship that will make you happy, and can your current partner provide that? Also, what is your capacity to do relationships well and can you sustain interactions with others?
- If all of their indicators are unfavorable for something, encourage the development of other parts of their life. If it's a mix, relationships will be good and bad/difficult, but you can identify where the problems will emerge. What's at cross-purposes with your desires?
- Chiron is an unfixable wound. How do you deal with it? Are you supposed to be a healer? (In my chart, apparently YES, but I don't feel that urge.) Maybe you are supposed to learn personal knowledge of a condition so that you can help others.
- Likewise, Persephone-issue people might be called to deal with going into the darker side of the psyche.
- What is the best expression for the greatest good that I can do given these circumstances? How can I best use the situation, NOT for what I want or what I think will make me happy, but for what realizes the chart?
- What is being asked of you instead of realization of what you want?
- Reframe/spin the situation to get a different perspective.
- Make peace with not getting what you want, focus on what the chart does say you'd be successful at.
- Help others with their suffering.
Hmmmmmmmmmm."You may think it unlikely that this person will find happiness and peace with a partner who is gentle, kind and appreciative. Yet it is the topic of relationship that guides his life, and the thought of not being in a relationship is untenable to him. How can you reframe these chart indicators to make sense of his predicament? The counselor in you might speculate that he may have taken on a karmic commitment (ruler of seventh in the twelfth) to women who are filled with inner rage towards men due to their own previous circumstances (his Venus in Aries in the seventh). Because he is secure enough in his own inner strength, he is able to withstand their tirades and give them unconditional love, commitment, continual help, and emotional support to bring some healing into their lives. Everyone can benefit from and heal by being loved, and it may be that he is able and willing to extend this compassion to a type of woman who needs it very much. The question here is how to find peace with a situation a person is unable or unwilling to change by viewing it in a way that affirms the higher impulses of the individual."
Anyway, I'd recommend this book.
