"The one thing I know about love for sure is that it's the only game in town and that you must keep going back to bat again and again. I have no respect for anyone who says they've given up, or that they're not looking or that they're tired. That is to abrogate one's responsibility as a human being." -from A Curmudgeon's Garden of Love

So, kind of in preparation for Elsa's next class, I was looking at my analysis from the previous one, which pretty much reiterates that I am a total bitch and a half when it comes to relationships and I suspect it would take an act of God to get me involved again. I can't help but think that if I was a professional and saw my chart, I'd tell me something like, "Look, you're gonna be miserable without a relationship, but you're also gonna have tons of issues within one, plus making the dude miserable. Considering that you can't win either way, I'd say to do lifelong singledom because at least this way you're not torturing someone else too."

Since I think this way, you can imagine how I find the above quote to be irritating as fuckall.

Now, I happen to own a much-treasured copy of A Curmudgeon's Garden of Love (if you can dig it up in a used bookstore, I HIGHLY recommend it. Any of the Curmudgeon books, for that matter), and it features an interview with Harlan Ellison, who got married four times before finally sticking with wife #5. Now, I don't have my copy in front of me and I can't find the direct quote I'm thinking of online, but he says something along the lines of, "If I, of all people, can finally find lasting love, it could happen to anybody." Well, maybe that's the case. I hear he's...interesting...to deal with in real life. But the interview itself is pretty entertaining to read, what with his worst date ever, how he can't go into details about losing his virginity but it was like a docking maneuver in 2001, etc. And if you read the link above, there's another quote about WHY he's had so many women split on him. But presumably Susan doesn't find him irritating. Go figure.

So I figured I'd check the guy's chart to see how much of a hard nut he is to crack. And he's got the usual suspects of difficulty in there: Mars Saturn square, Moon Saturn square, and Venus Saturn sextile. Venus Uranus loose-ish conjunction in seventh for all those sudden relationships squaring Pluto, and the Moon trines Pluto. UH-OH TEH DRAMA KABOOMBAH comes to mind seeing that. And oh, look, sun conjunct Chiron. So, yeah, me and Harlan Ellison are real goddamned lulus in relationship. That's...fun to know.

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I just finished reading The Importance of Being Famous and there's a very...telling...interview with Karl Lagerfeld in it:

"Karl has all the qualities of a virgin. He has great discipline. He does not need people around to be happy--he's very much into his dreams, his fantasies, and his books." -Gilles Dufour

"I was born to be alone." Lagerfeld says a fortune-teller first told him so when he was only eighteen, but he knew it already...He wouldn't need anybody else, the fortune-teller prophesied. "'There are things you can have and things you cannot have. One cannot have everything, and nobody can adjust to that as well as you.' She told me, 'You can never have a normal family life, so whatever the standard image is of happiness, family, friendship, bonheur [happiness], for you it doesn't work. Stay alone--watch the world--you can get everything if you are ready not to conform. Stay away from everything that is normal life.' Strange, eh?"

1: he's a Virgo. Here's his chart. So yes, he's got "all the qualities of a virgin." Virgo Sun conjunct Neptune would account for his dreaminess and fantasy world. And the Pisces moon comes out in the the point in the interview when he's crying about the death of his best friend, who seems to have been his equivalent of a "soul mate" and family even though they weren't romantically involved. I wonder about his codependency level a little since the Virgo/Pisces combo is prone to some kind of martyr/service thing. I suspect he's neither a Virgo or Pisces rising or he'd be more codependent, though. Apparently he wasn't compelled to get sexual or partner off for life, but it sounds like the best friend was his partner in life, more or less, even if it wasn't that sort of partnership.

I really wish I knew this guy's rising sign, not that you're ever likely to figure that out. (Apparently he tries to hide his birth date, but hah, there's evidence of that one.)

2. The fortune teller thing is VERY interesting to me. I suspected heavy Uranus influence, like he'd be an Aquarius rising or have Uranus rising (not that I can tell this). So all I can go on is the Uranian aspects in his chart, which are:

Sun trine Uranus orb -0°37'
Uranus trine Neptune orb +3°02'
Saturn semi-sextile Uranus orb +1°01'
Jupiter square Uranus orb -7°03'

In the same book, there's an interview at the end with Margot Fonteyn, and it goes on about how she was utterly self-sacrificing to her handicapped husband, how she didn't have an identity in her own head until she married him, and oh, how happy she was to do that sacrifice!

Naturally I was all, "Virgo," but...she's got NO Virgo whatsoever. What the heck? What accounts for this attitude?

I suspect I'd have to pin it on having Saturn on the descendant, and Sun, Moon, Mars, and Venus all tied to it. Saturn in the seventh is "hard knocks in love" anyway, but can manifest in having an ill partner. She felt bound in there, like "this is how love is supposed to go," and Saturn in Leo is kind of "hard on the family."

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So, my Pisces Moon mom has just been totally effing crazy all last week, and Teh Crazy is continuing this week. Alas, she has to use up her vacation time this week, so she is spending it calling me at work wanting to cry and go over drama (thanks, Mom), AND she can't find anyone who wants to hang out with her in this mood. Can't imagine why.

So, astrology: just coming out of an exact Saturn Return again for her, transiting Pluto square her natal Venus, nearing the end of Uranus through her seventh house. Progressed moon in seventh (trining Saturn for awhile) and she is screaming for a partner and nobody's giving it to her. Whee.

Then I get e-mail from my Pisces Moon BF, so I analyzed her tarot reading. Moral of the story: COOL IT WITH THE EMOTIONS, 'CAUSE THEY ARE MAKING YOU CRAZY AND YOU GET NOTHING DONE.

Her astrology: progressed moon in seventh, progressed Pluto/Venus/Sun trine and Mars opposed to Pluto.

I am so the person with No Sympathy For Your Pain this week.

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"Saturn is conjunct your Moon. Does this mean your mother was cold… or old? Maybe she died and you were deprived of a mother. Maybe she was a captain of industry, an accomplished woman in a position of authority. Maybe she beat you with a switch. Maybe she was depressed or she might have home schooled you. Maybe she was crippled or a Capricorn or a famous rock climber. You get the idea.

There are 11 guesses and I could give you 99 more in 15 minutes time but it makes a lot more sense for me to just ask you, “What was your mother like?”

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"And yes, I DO read your posts and they always cheer me up and make it very difficult for me to feel alone and uncared for, which I generally try to do every day."  -Carrie Fisher (Moon opposite Saturn, Venus quintile Saturn)

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look to the Saturn.

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George "Who, Me, Commit?" Clooney.

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Moon-Saturn  

“I’m a failure as a woman. My men expect so much of me, because of the image they’ve made of me and that I’ve made of myself, as a sex symbol. Men expect so much, and I can’t live up to it.” –Marilyn Monroe.

You may have these feelings if you have:

• Any aspects in your chart that connect the Moon and Saturn (conjunct, sextile, trine, square, opposition, etc.)
• Capricorn emphasis in your chart
• Saturn in Cancer
• Saturn in your fourth or tenth house.

Positive traits of Moon-Saturn connections:

• Loyal.
• Responsible.
• Self-sufficient.
• Practical.
• Trustworthy
• Able to keep calm when they need to

Negative traits of Moon-Saturn connections:

• Difficult childhood- parents, especially mother, may have been disapproving/let you down in some way. Love was conditional, you were forced to start suppressing your emotions very early on. Fear of expressing who you are, expression in general.
• Hard childhood- death, illness, poverty, separation may have happened.
• Difficulties in relating to women in general- especially “mommy issues.”
• Women in particular may have femininity/nurturing issues- either overcompensate or avoid anything feminine. Also, may either want no kids or tons of kids to avoid/make up for their own childhood.
• Emphasis on duty, especially taking care of others over yourself.
• Are likely to follow in family footsteps (good or bad), possibly end up with partners who are like your parents. May be controlled by your parents.
• Fear of criticism/being wrong/being inadequate- may be afraid to try new things.
• Attracted to relationships with hardships/burdens to them.
• Feel like you have to get your emotions satisfied through an unsatisfying family.

Poster children for Moon-Saturn:

• Marilyn Monroe (Saturn square Moon and trine Mars)
• Prince Charles (Saturn trine Moon)
• Madonna (Saturn square Moon)
• Martha Stewart (Saturn quincunx Moon)

Synastry example: Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton (his Saturn conjunct her Moon)

Qualities of Moon/Saturn synastry:

• Responsibility is implied in this relationship, it’ll be serious. Parent-child relationship implied again. Feeling their way towards true emotional intimacy, but it’ll be a challenge. Tests and trials are going to be part of the relationship, and sometimes it might be “off and on” out of frustration.
• The relationship brings out their individual needs for safety and security. The Moon person is attracted to Saturn’s dependability, Saturn envies how the Moon can express emotions, but doesn’t really get how to do it on their own.
• Moon person may feel that they need to censor their self-expression around Saturn, feel like they always have to come off as “adult” because Saturn may not approve, “get it”, or be able to handle their emotions. Saturn doesn’t get the “frivolous” expressions of neediness/dependency that the Moon might exhibit. Moon needs to try to NOT censor so much so that they get to the point of emotional isolation/frustration.
• Saturn needs to face fears and consciously not keep forcing the Moon to keep all emotions inside, and the Moon person needs to realize that sometimes Saturn has a point and is just not being harsh in order to be harsh. Trust with regards to sharing feelings needs to be built.

Suggested Saturnian solutions to this problem:

• Try to examine and understand the relationship with your mother, if possible. Work on healing it if possible. At the very least, see what went wrong and what you want to do differently to change it.

• Take care of your own emotional needs. You have to create what you are missing for yourself. Stop counting on others to give you what you need. You will need to develop your own inner strength and make your own security, because your family won’t provide it for you. Your goal is true emotional independence.
• You may have/need to burn bridges with your family if they are particularly toxic in order to grow and mature. They are not guaranteed security and love for you, and you can’t assume they will give it to you because you are related.
• Your goal is to feel safe enough to at least drop some of your defenses with others, especially in relationships.
• Women in particular need to figure out your femininity for yourself, NOT by going off of female stereotypes. Figure out what aspects of femininity you are okay with and want to practice, and try not to judge yourself so hard for not checking off every box on the “What Women Stereotypically Do” list.
• The Jupiter solution (Jupiter in Cancer/4^th): Make others feel included and supported. Devote yourself to others and tend to their needs.

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Here they are, for those not in attendance/who didn't get a printout. I'm printing one 2-sided page per entry just so it's not a monster post from hell.

Saturn Can Bite Me!

Characteristics, examples, and tips for dealing with

Saturn’s connection to your personal planets.

Notable quotes from astrologers on the subject:

• “Saturn always inclines toward the development of strength through isolation.”

--Liz Greene

•  “I don’t know any way of working with Saturn aspects except for the Saturn person, on one hand, to step back and get more detached about their behavior and their fears—it’s necessary for them to face their own fears, instead of trying to project their fears or insecurities onto the other person.” –Stephen Arroyo
• “Aries: You’ll never be brave enough. You’ll fail because you are afraid.

Cancer: You are not loveable enough. Mommy has every right to dislike you.

Leo: You can’t lead anything or anyone. You are wrong to believe that you could.

Capricorn: Daddy always said you’d never amount to anything. You are afraid he is right.” –Beth Turnage.

• “It may be that the path of developing a fully conscious relationship is as valid a spiritual discipline as the path of meditation or yoga—and that, as it is considerably more difficult, its rewards may be proportionally greater in terms of being able to overcome at least the sense of separateness…Perhaps those who are “Saturn-prone” in their relationships sense this, and this is the best path for them.” –Liz Greene
• “It’s true if someone has their Saturn in aspect to one of your planets (particularly the personal planets: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus and Mars), they will have some authority over you. They may be older, more experienced, more educated or whatever form this takes but you can’t tell from the chart how they might express this “advantage.” Will they be a mentor, an oppressor or a combination of those?” –Elsa Panizzon.

General suggestions for handling Saturn that apply to everybody:

• Therapy. Yes, that means you.
• Don’t count on others to solve your emotional problems—it is up to you to do it.
• Don’t listen to what everyone else says and does to figure out what you should be saying and doing. You need to find your own way.

• The “midpoint method:” Find the midpoint between Saturn and the personal planet(s) bugging you, and note its sign and house. Base your solution on what that empty house indicates.
• The “Jupiter method:” Look for where your Jupiter is in your chart by sign and house, and use the traits there to compensate. (More on this below for each one.)
• “Study the natal charts of famous people who have aspects similar to yours. If you have access to a database like AstroDataBank, you can sort by aspects, and find, for example, many famous people who have (or had) Venus in hard aspect to Saturn. Read their biographies, indentify this archetypal pattern and see how they dealt with it. (I will admit that I have not practiced what I preach here, but I think it can open up possibilities for you.”)” –Jeffrey Kishner. Cafeastrology.com also lists celebrities with natal aspects (see online bibliography for the links).

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I'll be posting the notes from the presentation I am doing on Monday at Pantheacon here. But since the infinitely long bibliography is already done, I'm posting it first for anyone who needs some Saturnian references.

Bibliography:

Books used to create this presentation:

• Saturn: A New Look at an Old Devil by Liz Greene.
• The Inner Planets by Liz Greene and Howard Sasportas.
• Relating by Liz Greene
• Linda Goodman's Relationship Signs by Linda Goodman and Carolyn Reynolds
• Past Life Astrology by Judy Hall
• Intimate Relationships: The Astrology of Attraction (edited by Joan McEvers). References "Affinities" by Richard Roess.
• Relationships and Life Cycles by Stephen Arroyo
• Planets: The Astrological Tools (edited by Joan McEvers). References "Venus" by Robert Glasscock, "Mars" by Johanna Mitchell, "Saturn" by Gina Ceaglio
• Finding Success in the Horoscope by Jackie Slevin
• Web of Relationships: Spiritual, Karmic and Psychological Bonds (edited by Joan McEvers. References "Child and Parent" by Cornelia Hansen and "Astrology and Past Life Relationships" by Bob Mulligan.
• Astrology for Women (edited by Gloria Star). References "On Singleness: Choosing To Be Me" by Madalyn Hillis-Deneen, "The Impact of Self-Esteem" by Ronnie Gale Dreyer
• Houses: A Contemporary Guide by Gwyneth Bryan.
• Karmic Astrology: Past Lives, Present Loves by Ruth Aharoni
• The Art of Predictive Astrology by Carol Rushman
• Astrology, Karma and Transformation by Stephen Arroyo
• Aspects of Astrology by Sue Tompkins
• Synastry: Understanding the Astrology of Relationships by Rod Suskin.
  

Articles:

• Article in Mountain Astrologer Dec 2006/Jan 2007- "Jupiter: Your Child's Key To Success" by Doria Gambino.
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2009/02/08/demystifying-astrology-saturn-in-synastry-mentor-or-oppressor/
• http://cafeastrology.com/karmicrelationshipskarma.html
• http://cafeastrology.com/relationship_potential.html
• http://cafeastrology.com/articles/saturninsynastry.html
• http://www.cafeastrology.com/synastry/venus_saturn_aspects.html
• http://www.cafeastrology.com/synastry/mars_saturn_aspects.html
  
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/10/09/open-question-saturn-in-the-7th-house-would-you-marry-them-how-popular-is-real-love-anyway
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/14/am-i-destined-to-be-unloved-venus-in-scorpio-square-saturn-ruling-the-7th-house/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/08/05/open-question-regarding-transits-to-the-natal-chart-saturn-square-venus-specifically
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/15/astrology-and-love-venus-saturn-in-relationship-delay-and-deprivation-there-is-more-to-the-story
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/18/venus-and-saturn-in-aspect-and-the-reality-of-love-plus-pisces-imagination-and-transcendence
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/23/astrology-and-love-and-loneliness-taking-the-heat-and-standing-up-for-your-friends/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2006/06/17/will-i-find-my-soulmate-venus-saturn-conjunction/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/07/26/astrology-and-children-sun-conjunct-saturn-9-years-old-what-did-you-tell-him/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/07/26/astrology-and-children-what-if-your-child-has-difficult-aspects-in-their-chart-like-mars-pluto-suggesting-sexual-abuse-and-the-like/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/06/07/sun-conjunct-saturn-all-grown-up-at-8-years-old/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/02/18/21-years-old-and-never-had-a-boyfriend-taurus-sun-opposite-saturn-in-scorpio/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/09/14/humility-its-attractive-and-the-bad-reputation-of-mars-in-aspect-to-saturn-in-astrology/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/11/23/astrology-and-relationship-too-old-to-leap-redux-saturn-in-aspect-to-mars-in-synastry-happy-capricorn-etc/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/10/19/astrology-and-the-cock-blocking-phenomena-saturn-in-aspect-to-mars/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/06/astrology-energy-mars-and-violence-in-nature/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/01/15/23-year-old-virgin-aries-sun-scorpio-rising/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2006/12/31/astro-twins-the-soldier-and-the-salesman-mars-and-saturn-in-aspect-2/
• http://www.astrologyexplored.com/the-astrology-of-saturn-fear-and-loathing-not-just-in-vegas/
• http://cosmicguidelinesblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/looking-for-partnership-saturn-way.html
• http://sasstrology.com/2008/07/how-to-change-stuck-relational-patterns.html
• http://astrotribe.tribe.net/thread/79e3af8e-f2e4-4fd0-b294-0639b3ccac5b
  

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