Saturn Return Can Bite Me

The freedom vs. couplehood debate, yet again

nobody@vox.com(fullmoon) — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 11:03:57 -0800

Elsa attempts a consultation on a really hard problem. Freedom vs. commitment again...

I have quite the history of getting into a relationship, things going well for a while, then I become somewhat bored and eventually become intrigued by someone new. I guess the boredom sort of builds up and then the new interest happens very quickly, catching my partner totally off guard.I used to have problems with cheating - now I just break up really quickly with the first person so I can be with the second w/o technically cheating.I know I have strong tendencies towards interest in the new and different romantically, but the problem is I also find great pleasure in the stability and comfort of having a steady partnership. The in between thing hasn’t worked either - greater distance, not seeing each other as much, just makes me dissatisfied at the lack of intense and regular interaction and wanting to find something more substantial. I seem to want intense depth and yet novelty as well, or something like that. I don’t know if it’s a matter of not meeting someone compatible enough, or if I’d do this no matter what, always wanting something more/different - likely the latter, I think.
On the Venus in Aqu./Uranus front, I agree that I will always have these tendencies for sudden attractions and it can be instead about whether or not to act on them - however, it also can (& does) mean a simultaneous sudden turning off of my feelings towards the current partner. It’s pretty much textbook Venus/Uranus. I don’t know what to do with that at all. It’s like something besides my personal will decides that it’s just time for this relationship to be over…and even if I want otherwise, my feelings are gone. Not my feelings towards them as a friend, but romantic ones.

And she doesn't want to do polyamory at all, which really screws the pooch here, I think. (Really, I have some of the aspects she cites as meaning "I want all the attention!" and "Mine!", she has more Jupiter/Sadge than I do, and I could handle it.) But you can't deal with someone who is absolutely no on the idea, so never mind.

First, the level of freedom you want and need and require is off the charts just with the stellium in Sagittarius alone. The Saturn trine suggests you have the capacity to reign this in but I am not sure this (restriction) is what would make you happiest. Taking responsibility for your Wild Horse-ness is probably a better tack.
So to apply this knowledge you can look at the fact that you will cheat but you won’t tolerate an open relationship where the other person can “cheat” and that’s a vivid manifestation of the inflation right there.
I think you can have both these things to an extent. The problem for you is the word, “extent”. With a chart like this you just don’t want to suffer any restriction or tie down of any kind. In short you want it all which is just not available to any of us for any length of time.
We don’t really know what would happen if you can contain your impulse to split because you have never experimented with this. Franky, I’d say that you have lacked the maturity but the Saturn transit is here to fix that. You’ve been humbled now (by despair) so you are ready to try something new.
I don’t think you will ever get rid of your freedom urges but you can come to realize that acting on them brings you pain. You could compare this to alcoholism or even my love of ice cream. I will always like ice cream but if I eat it, I am going to crash. So what you become here, is the hero in your own story. The person who had a fatal flaw but opted out.

I attempted to post comments, but that seems to be having issues. So here's my thoughts:

(a) She rules out polyamory, but one option would be to find a partner who wants to be monogamous to her, but is okay with her dating others. I know of a few folks in real life who are like this and they are probably hard to find, but it could happen. It sounds like her problem is that she won't share, but if she finds a guy who doesn't want to worry about juggling girlfriends, or wants a happy girlfriend who won't dump him when her attention span goes, or is secure enough to not worry about this stuff too much, he could be guy #1 and then she could rotate in her other guys.

This, however, does not really account for her lack of interest in guy #1 as soon as guy #2 comes about, though. I would not argue with Elsa about trying to stick with guy #1 and not immediately hop to guy #2 for a change and see if she can handle it, but if that doesn't work, maybe she should just...

(b) Accept that she is only going to have short-term partnerships. Jupiter on the descendant means she will have tons and tons of prospects and luck in finding them over the years. Maybe what she needs to do is warn the guys up front that she's only gonna be in the relationship for a short period of time and that's all she can handle. And date guys who feel similarly. Because god knows you won't run out of those people :P This doesn't really account for getting older and wanting to "settle down," but that's probably where "just pick a guy and stick with him and don't leave when your brain has moved on" would come in anyway.

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More Saturn relationship issues

nobody@vox.com(fullmoon) — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:26:39 -0700

How bad is it to marry someone with Saturn in the seventh/Venus Saturn? Ouch.

For people new to astrology, traditional interpretation of Saturn in the 7th house (or any other Venus Saturn exchange) is burden in relationship. There are other manifestations of course. People marry older partners, controlling partners, the marriage is a business deal and I could go on and on. Fact is whatever the case, some restriction is given.
Now before you go swearing off anyone with a Venus Saturn exchange in their chart (or stabbing yourself if it’s you with Saturn in the 7th) just consider the alternative. How would you like a partner with no restrictions, hmm? How about he or she runs amok all over the land? Sound any better? I didn’t think so.

I think that one depends on the restrictions. Some are easier than others. But yeah, I know people who run amok and they're all annoying.

I faced this head on when I decided to hook up with the soldier. There was tremendous impediment that would have to be overcome if we were to be together. There would be long delay of gratification but just in general, he has a very hard life in many ways, for may reasons.

I have a very hard life as well but his is even worse and I talked openly about this with friends. I understood that it I opted to hook up with him I would inherit his problems and hardships. I would assume all his burdens and there were a long list of them. Further, one look at his chart and it’s pretty clear it will always be this way so what to do?

What I did was think about it long and hard and I felt about it very deeply until I came to a decision and made a very serious commitment… to myself and to him. So to answer the question, personally I would (and have already) married someone with a Venus Saturn signature in their chart though I’d caution anyone to follow suit unless they had certain qualities.

If you do not have a level of maturity for example, you’re going to be in big trouble with your Saturnian partner. If you want to live in la la land, here again the person with Saturn associated with Venus is going to mess you up big time.

On the other hand if you want real (Saturn) love (Venus), the conscious Venus Saturn person has it to give. Thing is, I don’t think many want real love. They want a movie or an adventure or a fling. Maybe they want some danger or to piss off their mommy by dating or marrying you. Consequently Venus Saturn and their “real love” goes begging.

Hmmmmmm.

I think I am the burden myself. I am extremely bound to my mother and unlikely to escape it. I want out, but short of death or landing on Craphole Island, that is never going to happen. And any poor bastard with me has to deal with it (so far, they have been rather ticked and all, "Why can't you just cut her off?" Not that they ever did this themselves, mind you.) I don't like being burdened (Sag moon haaaaaaaaaates this), but it's like having a kid: I can't run away. I will be stuck being a caregiver again at some point, even though I am just terrible at it, because there is no one else. That time might be soon, I might have a few years' leeway, but the anvil will drop again on me, and only on me.

I tend to think, "I already have the burden, why should I take on MORE burden?!" in relationships now. Mainly because I didn't do terribly well at taking on a burden with my last ex, who was definitely a burden with regards to physical health. He hasn't had good health like ever, it's all genetic, and it's only gonna get worse as he goes on. (Also, he does run amok with money. Literally could not hold on to it for longer than 12 hours, HAD to spend it. Worse than me on shopaholicness, I swear.) He was the ex who reminded me the most of my dad and I was secretly butt-terrified that I'd be a shitty caregiver to him the worse he got in the future. I would tell him this and he would always brush it off (he's a terminal optimist). I think I'd prefer someone burden-free, because I already have my arms full o' crap with too much to handle as is. I dunno how much choice you have in the matter, though.

I guess in the end I wouldn't want to choose to go through with taking it on, but would be forced into it. Because I am a shit magnet.

Back to Elsa again...

One look at all the Saturn action in this chart and it’s no wonder we opted out of this relationship as teenagers. I think it was just too daunting but what about that thing they call “karma”? What about “destiny”?
I can be no accident we spend 28.5 years apart… a Saturn cycle and then are put back together to do what we would not or could not when we were kids. Something like this happens to you and if you’re us you start to maybe put 2 and 2 together or try to anyway And when we put 2 and 2 together we come up with the idea you just can’t avoid your destiny.

It doesn’t matter if you don’t like your destiny. It doesn’t matter if it scares you, pisses you off, makes you whine or whatever other kind of hijinks you can imagine, whatever it is your are trying to avoid (or pawn off on others) is going to come back and get you and get you in spades.

So in this case I was going to try to opt away from the Special Forces soldier. I didn’t want to deal with (anymore) death. I wanted to have a lighter fare life for a switch, but guess what? That was not my destiny anymore than having blond hair is my destiny and our having put this off and delayed it for 30 years did us little good. It may be understandable but it was not advisable and my point as it relates to others is this:

Whatever your problems may be… let’s say you have problems in relationship since they are so focal for me. You are only going to be able to run so long. You can run all the way to your grave if you like but where is that going to get you? Will you wake up in your next life with the same problems only worse?

Based on my life experience I tend to think so.

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Chiron in the seventh house and John Edwards

nobody@vox.com(fullmoon) — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:52:43 -0700

He has Chiron in the mix (square Neptune and and Saturn), in the 7th house (relationships). This makes him more charming to the ladies than a bleeding tourist is to a shark. It also means his relationships could have that quality of one disaster after the next, which would be true as long as you don’t notice how much he’s learning, or the level of authenticity he strives to bring to the people he’s involved with, or how deeply they touch him.

I already have Chiron in seventh, so this makes me laugh.

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AstroBookReview: Houses by Gwyneth Bryan

nobody@vox.com(fullmoon) — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 21:03:47 -0700

Hey, remember when I used to do book reviews? Man, I sure don't. I have a lot to catch up on.

Houses: A Contemporary Guide (Special Topics in Astrology)

Anyway, I just got this book and thought it was pretty fabulous, especially for the Saturn-oriented folks. She talks about the focuses of each house, planets in each house, celebrities that she feels have a certain emphasis with that house (though sometimes I do wonder about her choices when the celeb has one planet in the house and stelliums in other houses...). It's a surprisingly good primer, even for me who was originally planning on flipping through it idly in the bookstore because I'm "too sophisticated" for it. Nope.

There are specific subjects in the book that she really discusses well, and I would recommend buying this book if you have/have interest in these particular things:

Descendants/Seventh House
Fifth house Saturn
Tenth house Saturn
Tenth house Sun
Twelfth House
Venus in the twelfth house

Not that this isn't interesting for other aspects/placements, but I specifically liked those writeups. A fifth house Saturn sounds a lot like the same issues as Saturn in Leo. I could relate.

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Uranus and commitment-o-phobia

nobody@vox.com(fullmoon) — Tue, 13 May 2008 08:38:45 -0700

What if you want to marry someone with Uranus in the seventh house? Answer: you'd better want your own space, 'cause they're going to want theirs. And if you both do, then that's all right.

Now, looking at my chart, I didn't have any obvious connections to this...but it's pretty much how I have dated. There was always some reason or other why the guy couldn't be around 24-7 (usually he had to be out of town a lot, or lived out of town, or was a Capricorn). And I liked it. At one point the ex who lived out of town stayed at my place for a month, and I was feeling weirded out by it. Not to mention that I fall for people rarely and when I do it's like lightning struck.

Well, I started reading Astrology Of Intimacy, Sexuality & Relationship. I have attempted to read Noel Tyl before and mostly I just can't read his charts terribly well l (I gave up on reading Vocations entirely, since all he does is talk about other people's charts and not about how to relate the information to anyone else) and had to give up. But in this book, things were more clear, and he really talks about the psychology of things, how upbringing has to do with what you want/need in relationships, etc. I'm not done with it yet, but I'd recommend people getting it.

But anyway, he talks a LOT about the quindecile. A lot a lot a lot, and I was all, "what the hell is that?" I usually ignore anything beyond conjunction/square/opposition/trine/sextile, and occasionally pay attention to the inconjunct. Beyond that it gets freaking confusing, not to mention hard to spell.

But once I got home and looked up what it is, it makes a lot more sense. It's a planetary connection that is just outside the opposition (i.e. close but not quite), BUT it represents obsession and an area of extreme focus. Interesting...

What quindeciles do I have?

Venus quindecile Uranus- 13 deg. difference.
Jupiter quindecile Neptune- 16 deg. difference.
Saturn q midheaven axis, exact at 15 degrees.

So, yeah, I've got Venus and Uranus after all! Not a surprise, I suppose. And, of course, Saturn has to get in on the midheaven action.

I think I may end up writing more on this later....

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Blinded by the Sedna

nobody@vox.com(fullmoon) — Mon, 05 May 2008 14:07:23 -0700

I'm not all that into the asteroids most of the time (I'll pay attention to a few major ones like Juno and that's kinda it), but I was looking up stuff about Sedna and well, found some stuff. It's OF COURSE on my seventh house cusp/Sun/Chiron conjunction...I should really just call that the conjunction of OW. And draw some kind of big stabby knife over it on my natal chart.

Sedna is the place where our parents fail us. They fail to teach us, either because of their own flaws or lack of knowledge or inattention to our needs how to navigate that area successfully. It is the place where because we lack a base of knowledge to work from, we are blind. We can not put into perspective the issues Sedna touches off in our chart. With work, we can transmute our understanding of this area, but it will always be a place where we experience loss and betrayal.

"Sedna in your chart is where your parents or other caretakers failed to teach, leaving you with a spot in your life where it is like you are walking around in the dark, stumbling into the furniture.
As a preliminary definition, this is how Sedna appears to work with personal planets,especially in the hard aspects.
Sedna/Sun–You have difficulty understanding why you can’t find your “place” in the world. Your ego drives seem to miss the mark over and over again, where you either go too far, or not far enough in achieving personal goals."

*sigh* Yeah.

"Every once in a while you get a client where nothing is quite right and then again nothing is quite wrong either. Everything on the surface looks good, home, career, etc. but there is an underlying sense of dissatisfaction you get from the client, something that goes beyond the usual Uranian and Neptunian sturm and drang of the mid-life crisis. There is a sense of opportunities missed or opportunities that never quite materialized. This is where Sedna comes in.
As mentioned before, Sedna appears to act like the blind spot in your life. In the area that Sedna sits we have a fundamental lack of understanding of what we are due, what we can expect. It is a resource untapped, because we have no understanding on how to use it. Often times, when we do try to tap this resource we get some nasty blow back because of a mishandling/misunderstanding of the energy.
Much care must be used in approaching a Sedna situation. Our instincts are skewed in this area and so we must plan a reasonable response and work the plan. Faith is the vital component here. As with all the transplutonian bodies, we are working with extra dimensional realities. We have no earthly frame of reference to make sense of the circumstances, let alone the results. Now that these dwarf planets have revealed themselves, we have access to their energies, but we have a way to go before we understand they work in our lives.
Because Sedna’s trip around the Sun is so long, every person alive has Sedna in Aries or Taurus. This makes it easy to find it in the chart, but it obscures the meaning of your Aries or Taurus point. With Aries you were never taught to defend yourself properly. Either you are unable to defend yourself or you go into overkill mode. With Taurus, resources were withheld from you as you were growing up, leaving you to feel like you don’t deserve the financial resources you need. Consequently, you over consume to compensate for these feelings.
Sedna in aspect to the Sun–With Sedna in the fifth you always feel like your creative endeavors are not good enough. Oh you certainly try, but your ultimate disastifaction with your attempts leaves you with a sense of frustration. For you you must get engaged in the process and stop trying to judge your results. The same thing goes for romance, because romance is about a creative process as it gets.

Whee.

Sedna in the Seventh–Understand that the concept of partnership is formed in the early years by a having a bonded relationship with a parent. The parent has one contract, to nurture the child, the child another, to grow up into a productive human being. Somewhere along that developmental tract, those contracts were voided and as a result, your sense of partnership is seriously skewed. Either you abrogate your responsibilities to your partner or you take on way too much of the work of the relationship. If you end up in therapy over your relationship, listen to your therapist very carefully, because they understand what you need to do better than you.

Mine is skewed indeed. Yeah, can't deny it.

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Seventh house series

nobody@vox.com(fullmoon) — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:36:21 -0800

Elsa's got another series going on...time to pimp it!

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Planets in the seventh house

nobody@vox.com(fullmoon) — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:29:48 -0700

What that means.

When a planet is in a house, the planet expresses itself in the corresponding area of the person's life that the house represents. For example, if your Sun is in the Third, you will need to write, teach, chat, barter -- anything having to do with the transfer of information and goods. Regardless of the style of your Sun's expression (its sign), you will not be satisfied unless you communicate.
If you have a planet in the Seventh, you will have to meet that planet's corresponding need in a relationship (romantic, business, open enemy, and so on). In other words, you are dependent on another to fulfill that planet's impulse. So, if you have no planets in the Seventh, it simply means that being in a partnership is not essential to the expression of your planets.

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Sun in seventh house

nobody@vox.com(fullmoon) — Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:22:42 -0700

I entered this life to establish a balance of male/female projections. As long as I can remember, I was fascinated by the idea of finding everlasting love with a partner who would respect me, and my contribution. As far as I knew, it was the means to happiness if I truly met my other half. My partner and I took on our pre-ordained male/female roles. He was decisive; I was submissive. I devoted my self and my life to my other half. Happiness eluded us and we found ourselves opposing each other on everything.

This does not surprise me:

Surprisingly, perhaps, the Sun in the House of Venus may produce tolerant and reasonable people but it does not produce willing candidates for marriage. It is notable that 7th House people of both sexes tend to marry late - if at all. Women with the Sun in the H7, in particular, possibly as a reaction to experiences with dominant partners early in their lives, tend to feel that they stand to lose too much of themselves in a conventional marriage and become very self-sufficient.

What does it mean to have a seventh house sun?

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