14 posts tagged “sun saturn”

Am still reading along (though not participating, really) with Elsa's Sun series class. Today's chart was someone she cited as being truly burdened and I freaked out for a few paragraphs assuming it was me. It wasn't me, but it was someone with Saturn opposing three planets and Elsa likened them to being the person who has to haul the bodies out of a hospice.

OUCH doesn't even begin to cover that one.

I guess we all have our thoughts on who has a nasty chart. I think mine is pretty nasty what with all the Saturn and the T-square and the feminine planet hammering in it, and the Chiron (if you count in Juno there's yet another T-square there), but I tend to think the two guys I know with heavy oppositions in their charts (one has opposing stelliums, one guy has virtually all of his planets in Aquarius opposing one in Leo) out-nasty mine. And they do have a hard time.

This person has Saturn square Sun, Venus, Ascendant, and Mercury and thinks they have it worst off. Pat's response, however...

Jacy, please pardon my saying so, but this is far from the worst natal chart ever!

I’ve seen many more-challenging ones, starting with my own, which stumped even Rob Hand, arguably the greatest living astrologer on the planet. Not only do I have a fixed T-square in a sensitive spot, but I’ve got a Moon-Saturn square that has manifested in some most unpleasant ways. And just when I thought mine was the “worst ever,” I met a man with not one but two fixed T-squares, one of which virtually ensures that it will be nearly impossible for him to find a fulfilling, intimate relationship with a woman unless he is willing to do a ton of work … and we all know what people with a lot of fixed energy in their charts think about that!

Looking at it another way, “easy” charts aren’t necessarily desirable, either. Typically, people without some challenges in their charts (squares, oppositions, or difficult conjunctions) end up totally overwhelmed in a crisis and can’t cope. People with difficult charts learn to cope early and often, and if we are willing to do the work it takes to overcome these handicaps, we end up much stronger and wiser.

Wow. When Rob Hand freaks out at your chart...I am so wondering what the details of her T-square are now.

   Sun-Saturn  

“When I was a kid, adults often told me I would be rich and famous some day. Apparently I was giving off some kind of ambition vibe early on. I think ambition is a genetic defect. You can’t have ambition unless you think there is something wrong with the way you are. Ambition is a state of feeling perpetually flawed.

By most objective standards, my career has gone well. By my internal standards, I am in a continuous state of not doing enough.” –Scott Adams, Dilbert creator.

You may have these feelings if you have:

• Any aspects in your chart that connect the Sun and Saturn (conjunct, sextile, trine, square, opposition, etc.)
• Capricorn emphasis in your chart
• Saturn in Leo
• Saturn in your fourth or tenth house.

Positive traits of Sun-Saturn connections:

• Very hard working and determined. Work rewards you when relationships don’t.
• Goal-oriented
• Inclined towards leadership or setting good examples for others.
• Ambitious.
• Loyal.

Negative traits of Sun-Saturn connections:

• Difficult childhood- parents, especially father, may have been disapproving/let you down in some way. May spend your entire life trying to get dad’s approval in some way. Felt insignificant as a child and the desire to BE significant drives you in adulthood.
• Grew up early- short/no childhood, bad things happened early on to force it.
• Lack of confidence, feel inadequate. Your very identity feels repressed.
• Emphasis on duty
• Depression-prone
• Can’t get away with anything!
• Difficulties in relating to men in general- especially “daddy issues”
• Really need to work for what you want.
• Some people may deny they have goals at all because they can’t deal with it if they fail at achieving them. Need to get started.

Poster children for Sun-Saturn:

• Scott Adams (Saturn opposite to Sun)
• Oprah Winfrey (Saturn square Sun/Venus)
• Wynonna Judd (Saturn square Sun)
• Arnold Schwartzenegger (Saturn conjunct Sun)

Synastry example: Patrick Swayze and Lisa Niemi (her sun trines his Saturn, his sun squares her Saturn).

Qualities of Sun/Saturn synastry:

• Sun person wants independence, ends up doing most of the compromising. Saturn person can be depressing to the Sun.
• Massive loyalty between the partners. Possible karmic ties, bond is hard to break. It’s like two souls have made a commitment to work on a lesson together/resolve an old issue. One feels responsible for the other- loves them enough to help them learn the hard lessons. There is a parent-child aspect to this on the psychological level.
• Saturn person admires the Sun person because the Sun person is happily living out what Saturn wishes they could. Saturn person offers guidance, security, and a sense of stability to the Sun person, and they can learn from the Sun how to act.
• The Saturn person can end up pushing the Sun down a path so they can live vicariously through them, or the Saturn person can squash the Sun person so they won’t outshine Saturn. Saturn needs to find their own purpose and joy instead.

Suggested Saturnian solutions to this problem:

• Try to examine and understand the relationship with your father, if possible. Work on healing it if possible. At the very least, see what went wrong and what you want to do differently to change it.
• You need to figure out how to control your own life and build your own sense of self. Others will not help you do this, so you need to work on independence and breaking ties with your family’s limitations.
• Develop your own sense of worth, rather than trying to fulfill someone else’s definition of it.
• Create your own masculine/masculine side identity, because you won’t learn how to do it from your dad.
• The Jupiter solution (Jupiter in Capricorn/10^th): Set goals, make an action plan, go after what you want.

Here they are, for those not in attendance/who didn't get a printout. I'm printing one 2-sided page per entry just so it's not a monster post from hell.

Saturn Can Bite Me!

Characteristics, examples, and tips for dealing with

Saturn’s connection to your personal planets.

Notable quotes from astrologers on the subject:

• “Saturn always inclines toward the development of strength through isolation.”

--Liz Greene

•  “I don’t know any way of working with Saturn aspects except for the Saturn person, on one hand, to step back and get more detached about their behavior and their fears—it’s necessary for them to face their own fears, instead of trying to project their fears or insecurities onto the other person.” –Stephen Arroyo
• “Aries: You’ll never be brave enough. You’ll fail because you are afraid.

Cancer: You are not loveable enough. Mommy has every right to dislike you.

Leo: You can’t lead anything or anyone. You are wrong to believe that you could.

Capricorn: Daddy always said you’d never amount to anything. You are afraid he is right.” –Beth Turnage.

• “It may be that the path of developing a fully conscious relationship is as valid a spiritual discipline as the path of meditation or yoga—and that, as it is considerably more difficult, its rewards may be proportionally greater in terms of being able to overcome at least the sense of separateness…Perhaps those who are “Saturn-prone” in their relationships sense this, and this is the best path for them.” –Liz Greene
• “It’s true if someone has their Saturn in aspect to one of your planets (particularly the personal planets: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus and Mars), they will have some authority over you. They may be older, more experienced, more educated or whatever form this takes but you can’t tell from the chart how they might express this “advantage.” Will they be a mentor, an oppressor or a combination of those?” –Elsa Panizzon.

General suggestions for handling Saturn that apply to everybody:

• Therapy. Yes, that means you.
• Don’t count on others to solve your emotional problems—it is up to you to do it.
• Don’t listen to what everyone else says and does to figure out what you should be saying and doing. You need to find your own way.

• The “midpoint method:” Find the midpoint between Saturn and the personal planet(s) bugging you, and note its sign and house. Base your solution on what that empty house indicates.
• The “Jupiter method:” Look for where your Jupiter is in your chart by sign and house, and use the traits there to compensate. (More on this below for each one.)
• “Study the natal charts of famous people who have aspects similar to yours. If you have access to a database like AstroDataBank, you can sort by aspects, and find, for example, many famous people who have (or had) Venus in hard aspect to Saturn. Read their biographies, indentify this archetypal pattern and see how they dealt with it. (I will admit that I have not practiced what I preach here, but I think it can open up possibilities for you.”)” –Jeffrey Kishner. Cafeastrology.com also lists celebrities with natal aspects (see online bibliography for the links).

I'll be posting the notes from the presentation I am doing on Monday at Pantheacon here. But since the infinitely long bibliography is already done, I'm posting it first for anyone who needs some Saturnian references.

Bibliography:

Books used to create this presentation:

• Saturn: A New Look at an Old Devil by Liz Greene.
• The Inner Planets by Liz Greene and Howard Sasportas.
• Relating by Liz Greene
• Linda Goodman's Relationship Signs by Linda Goodman and Carolyn Reynolds
• Past Life Astrology by Judy Hall
• Intimate Relationships: The Astrology of Attraction (edited by Joan McEvers). References "Affinities" by Richard Roess.
• Relationships and Life Cycles by Stephen Arroyo
• Planets: The Astrological Tools (edited by Joan McEvers). References "Venus" by Robert Glasscock, "Mars" by Johanna Mitchell, "Saturn" by Gina Ceaglio
• Finding Success in the Horoscope by Jackie Slevin
• Web of Relationships: Spiritual, Karmic and Psychological Bonds (edited by Joan McEvers. References "Child and Parent" by Cornelia Hansen and "Astrology and Past Life Relationships" by Bob Mulligan.
• Astrology for Women (edited by Gloria Star). References "On Singleness: Choosing To Be Me" by Madalyn Hillis-Deneen, "The Impact of Self-Esteem" by Ronnie Gale Dreyer
• Houses: A Contemporary Guide by Gwyneth Bryan.
• Karmic Astrology: Past Lives, Present Loves by Ruth Aharoni
• The Art of Predictive Astrology by Carol Rushman
• Astrology, Karma and Transformation by Stephen Arroyo
• Aspects of Astrology by Sue Tompkins
• Synastry: Understanding the Astrology of Relationships by Rod Suskin.
  

Articles:

• Article in Mountain Astrologer Dec 2006/Jan 2007- "Jupiter: Your Child's Key To Success" by Doria Gambino.
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2009/02/08/demystifying-astrology-saturn-in-synastry-mentor-or-oppressor/
• http://cafeastrology.com/karmicrelationshipskarma.html
• http://cafeastrology.com/relationship_potential.html
• http://cafeastrology.com/articles/saturninsynastry.html
• http://www.cafeastrology.com/synastry/venus_saturn_aspects.html
• http://www.cafeastrology.com/synastry/mars_saturn_aspects.html
  
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/10/09/open-question-saturn-in-the-7th-house-would-you-marry-them-how-popular-is-real-love-anyway
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/14/am-i-destined-to-be-unloved-venus-in-scorpio-square-saturn-ruling-the-7th-house/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/08/05/open-question-regarding-transits-to-the-natal-chart-saturn-square-venus-specifically
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/15/astrology-and-love-venus-saturn-in-relationship-delay-and-deprivation-there-is-more-to-the-story
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/18/venus-and-saturn-in-aspect-and-the-reality-of-love-plus-pisces-imagination-and-transcendence
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/23/astrology-and-love-and-loneliness-taking-the-heat-and-standing-up-for-your-friends/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2006/06/17/will-i-find-my-soulmate-venus-saturn-conjunction/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/07/26/astrology-and-children-sun-conjunct-saturn-9-years-old-what-did-you-tell-him/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/07/26/astrology-and-children-what-if-your-child-has-difficult-aspects-in-their-chart-like-mars-pluto-suggesting-sexual-abuse-and-the-like/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/06/07/sun-conjunct-saturn-all-grown-up-at-8-years-old/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/02/18/21-years-old-and-never-had-a-boyfriend-taurus-sun-opposite-saturn-in-scorpio/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/09/14/humility-its-attractive-and-the-bad-reputation-of-mars-in-aspect-to-saturn-in-astrology/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/11/23/astrology-and-relationship-too-old-to-leap-redux-saturn-in-aspect-to-mars-in-synastry-happy-capricorn-etc/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/10/19/astrology-and-the-cock-blocking-phenomena-saturn-in-aspect-to-mars/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/06/astrology-energy-mars-and-violence-in-nature/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/01/15/23-year-old-virgin-aries-sun-scorpio-rising/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2006/12/31/astro-twins-the-soldier-and-the-salesman-mars-and-saturn-in-aspect-2/
• http://www.astrologyexplored.com/the-astrology-of-saturn-fear-and-loathing-not-just-in-vegas/
• http://cosmicguidelinesblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/looking-for-partnership-saturn-way.html
• http://sasstrology.com/2008/07/how-to-change-stuck-relational-patterns.html
• http://astrotribe.tribe.net/thread/79e3af8e-f2e4-4fd0-b294-0639b3ccac5b
  

(God, I so need to work on my presentation right now. Nowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. Sigh.)

Anyhoo...

“My boyfriend has Saturn conjunct my Sun. Will he hold me back?”

He may but he may also be the best thing that ever happened to you. It’s true if someone has their Saturn in aspect to one of your planets (particularly the personal planets: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and Mars), they will have some authority over you.

They may be older, more experienced, more educated or whatever form this takes but you can’t tell from the chart how they might express this “advantage”. Will they be a mentor, an oppressor or a combination of those?

Also, this aspect works in reverse. Saturn tends to feel old and insecure at least at times so the young upstart (you) may trigger these feelings.

Ultimately the onus is on the Saturn person to act responsibly and “do the right thing”. How well people manage this can be determined by their maturity level which has ve ry little to do with age. My 9 year old son restrains himself (Saturn) while his friend and peer oppresses (Saturn) his younger sisters so just keep that mind when you run into this situation in synastry. Are you being supported… or crushed?

You may recall yesterday when I was talking about this book and mentioned the Chiron is an unfixable wound thing.

Well, that night I was in a car with a friend of mine whose life is going to crap. She's got a bad family situation that she is utterly trapped in, and on top of that, her job has gone to hell due to a crazy, unpleasable boss. She is the butt monkey there and that's all there is to it. She's pretty well near nuclear meltdown and is fed up with her current career, but cannot afford to lose her job because there's kids and a husband who's job hunting.

The first half hour or so that I see her is just kind of post-work meltdown time, and during that she was saying that she thought she was just broken and unfixable and there's no way to fix yourself. That she used to think if you prayed hard enough and did enough work on yourself to figure out why you were broken, that you could fix it. Except the prayer never worked and just because you know how you got broken doesn't mean that you know how to fix it.

I knew her birth date but was all, "What is your birth year?", because I HAD to go check her Chiron placement. She is not so much into the hippie crap as I am, so I didn't say anything much about astrology specifically, but I wanted to.

Well, she's got a stellium in Pisces opposing the Uranus/Pluto conjunction. And she's got the Sun and Saturn and Chiron all next to each other. As a Sun Chiron person, I related.

Wounded, indeed. Poor girl. I worry about her, but I don't see any way to fix her life either.

"However, there are a few issues you need to work through to get to your goal of love and marriage.

My first impression when I looked at your chart was that you are a person grew up in a overprotective atmosphere. Your Sun in the zodiac sign of Taurus is opposite Saturn, which usually indicates a restrictive upbringing, “for your own good”. It is an out of sign opposition, which weakens the effect, but you did experience a childhood where girls’ behavior was closely monitored, and your brother experienced greater freedom of movement. You were enjoined and praised for being a “good girl”, which I am sure you were. But being a “good girl” also denied you avenues of personal growth. For one thing, despite Pluto running over your Uranus/Venus opposition, which is a cry for personal freedom in your chart, you are still looking for the traditional avenues of personal fulfillment, love and marriage. Perhaps all you’ve gotten out of this transit is a sense that you are “different” from other girls, but nothing can be further from the truth.

An important planet for you is Chiron which sits at the top of your chart, one of four points in a Grand Cross in mutable signs. Chiron talks about a wound that is difficult to heal. It manifests in conditions that cause us emotion pain. A Grand Cross in Mutable signs calls for adaptability in face of changing conditions. One effect of a Grand Cross is that when one point of the Cross is activated, the energy zings around the chart affecting other other parts of your life. For you this effects your health, the health of other people around you, your higher ideals and communications you receive. One would surmise from such a Cross that you are often expected to care for the health of a family member, most likely your mother or another female relative, which is a cause of the restrictions in your life. Your pain is that these restrictions are making it difficult for you to live your own life.

Your Grand Trine does not help you in that it allows you to acquiesce to the demands of others. It also feeds what some have called the Cinderella Complex. Cinderella does everything she is supposed to do, despite hardships, and she is rewarded by magically being allowed to go to ball, being swept away into the arms of Prince Charming and eventually living happily ever after. But life is not a fairy tale, and if we want something to happen, we need to make it happen. You aren’t Cinderella and Prince Charming crept off a long time ago with some of the help.

Both Chiron and Neptune in the sky right now are making long slow transits of your fifth house of romance churning up your romantic desires to be swept away from your life as it is right now. Neptune feeds overly romantic thoughts, and Chiron makes you painfully aware of what you don’t have. You are not seeing the issue clearly, and this you need to work on.

First you need to separate your needs from that of your family. As long as you allow them to do so, they will continue rely on you to be a caretaker. You are in your twenties now and it is well past time to leave the nest. If you have not pursued an education, you should do so. If you have, go back for a master’s or doctorate degree, away from home, anyplace where you can live on your own and experience life without the well intentioned interference of your family. Only until you discover who you really are, what you really need, will you be in full control of your choices, including, who to marry and when to have children."

Well, I got into the conference to talk about astrology! Huzzah!

The topic is going to be Saturn/personal planet connections, your personality, with some synastry thrown in. Basically, Sun/Saturn, Moon/Saturn, Mars/Saturn and Venus/Saturn. (Mercury/Saturn doesn't seem to mess people up nearly as bad, so I'm skipping that one.) Naturally, I've gone on about the last one quite a bit, but I plan on doing a lot of research, posting notes/links here, etc. Yay, excuse for research!

Right now I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to how to channel Mars/Saturn energy if a physical outlet can't be used. I know someone in this situation and ah...let's just say that right now he channels it in a "gets angry at everyone around him" sort of way. He used to be an active guy, but he won't be able to do much beyond walking ever again, so I was kind of at a loss as to how to advise his wife on this. At any rate, I'd like to have some solutions as to how to cope with the Big Four to talk about in my talk.

If anyone has any suggestions as to how they handle theirs, or any suggestions/links/thoughts they have on these aspects, let me know!

Heh. Neith, like me, has a LOT of Saturn shit.

In related news, I'm reading Elsa again and the comments here get interesting. Especially the chick who's tired of Elsa talking about her boyfriend all the time. (To which I say, well, I've been there and done that at times in my life, but it is her blog and she can write what she wants, and she writes about relationships, and what's under her nose right now...so...skip reading for awhile?) But really, here come the Venus Saturn folks...

• "Yes, I believe Love is great and it is the highest joy one can experience. Will I have it in any lasting form?

  No.

  And as a Scorp w/ Cancer Moon and a Cancer Descendent… you can just imagine how I ache for a place to rest my head and call home…and feel safe…and protected… and unconditionally loved.

  But alas, I have Saturn opposition Venus, an empty 7th house & my Venus is in Sag.

  Apparently the universe doesn’t think I need a stable, lasting relationship. Um, OK. Thanks Universe! Too bad I’m too sensitive to endure this.

  It’s brutal. I have intense, very short love affairs that I unconsciously destroy or the Universe destroys for reasons unbeknownst to me.

  It’s fate.

  And yet, I need love like I need air…but it just slips right through my fingers…
  And it’s too painful to keep starting over since I’m apparently doomed due to the Saturn opposition."

• "You are not doomed..What you are looking for you just haven’t found yet…I have always thought saturn venus contacts showed stability..But stability doen’t come easy and all of us have a different definition of it.

  My version of it is owning my own place that I can alway run home too if things get weird even if its only for a day..IT WASN’T A MAN PROVIDING THAT FOR ME EVEN THOUGH I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT Was..Even when I had that I NEVER FELT SAFE..

  You just need to really think about what it is your looking for. You are the only one who can make you feel safe..That really is the truth…"