Why Sookie and Bill hit it off in real life. Good analysis!

Her Saturn in Libra conjoins his Sun and Jupiter exactly, and his Saturn in Taurus closely squares her Leo Sun. In light of them publicly announcing their engagement, I see these Saturn aspects as a very good indicator the relationship will prove durable. As I have said before, Saturn is happiest when the legalities are met. It will be interesting to see when they choose to marry, because it is highly likely to happen during her Saturn return, when transiting Saturn in Libra hits one of his many planets in Libra. There is little doubt in my mind this will be a very equitable arrangement with willingness to compromise on both sides.

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I just finished reading The Importance of Being Famous and there's a very...telling...interview with Karl Lagerfeld in it:

"Karl has all the qualities of a virgin. He has great discipline. He does not need people around to be happy--he's very much into his dreams, his fantasies, and his books." -Gilles Dufour

"I was born to be alone." Lagerfeld says a fortune-teller first told him so when he was only eighteen, but he knew it already...He wouldn't need anybody else, the fortune-teller prophesied. "'There are things you can have and things you cannot have. One cannot have everything, and nobody can adjust to that as well as you.' She told me, 'You can never have a normal family life, so whatever the standard image is of happiness, family, friendship, bonheur [happiness], for you it doesn't work. Stay alone--watch the world--you can get everything if you are ready not to conform. Stay away from everything that is normal life.' Strange, eh?"

1: he's a Virgo. Here's his chart. So yes, he's got "all the qualities of a virgin." Virgo Sun conjunct Neptune would account for his dreaminess and fantasy world. And the Pisces moon comes out in the the point in the interview when he's crying about the death of his best friend, who seems to have been his equivalent of a "soul mate" and family even though they weren't romantically involved. I wonder about his codependency level a little since the Virgo/Pisces combo is prone to some kind of martyr/service thing. I suspect he's neither a Virgo or Pisces rising or he'd be more codependent, though. Apparently he wasn't compelled to get sexual or partner off for life, but it sounds like the best friend was his partner in life, more or less, even if it wasn't that sort of partnership.

I really wish I knew this guy's rising sign, not that you're ever likely to figure that out. (Apparently he tries to hide his birth date, but hah, there's evidence of that one.)

2. The fortune teller thing is VERY interesting to me. I suspected heavy Uranus influence, like he'd be an Aquarius rising or have Uranus rising (not that I can tell this). So all I can go on is the Uranian aspects in his chart, which are:

Sun trine Uranus orb -0°37'
Uranus trine Neptune orb +3°02'
Saturn semi-sextile Uranus orb +1°01'
Jupiter square Uranus orb -7°03'

In the same book, there's an interview at the end with Margot Fonteyn, and it goes on about how she was utterly self-sacrificing to her handicapped husband, how she didn't have an identity in her own head until she married him, and oh, how happy she was to do that sacrifice!

Naturally I was all, "Virgo," but...she's got NO Virgo whatsoever. What the heck? What accounts for this attitude?

I suspect I'd have to pin it on having Saturn on the descendant, and Sun, Moon, Mars, and Venus all tied to it. Saturn in the seventh is "hard knocks in love" anyway, but can manifest in having an ill partner. She felt bound in there, like "this is how love is supposed to go," and Saturn in Leo is kind of "hard on the family."

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"Vid has his Sun conjunct Saturn. This means he has to earn his self esteem. I think this is true for all but certainly true for Sun conjunct Saturn.
The Sun = Leo = Shine = Gold.  Sun conjunct Saturn can shine like gold if they earn their self esteem. Otherwise they shine like fool’s gold, see?

If they get their self esteem by oppressing others  or judging them harshly? No good.

If they earn their self esteem by cheating or cutting corners in any way?  No good.

The only path to a solid sense of self for Sun Saturn is one of uncompromised integrity so based on this, I can’t let Vid’s father do his homework and call it “being supportive”.

I feel very strongly I have to push my son to achieve because if I don’t and if he doesn’t, he is going to be a very burdened (Saturn) person who will burden others. He will be burdened looking for someone to judge for one thing. Judge harshly so that he shines in comparison and that’s just the beginning of the nasty manifestations.

I tell my son that we feel good about ourselves because we work hard to the best of our abilities and this is the only method that will lead you somewhere. Maybe next time he’ll be born with an instant ticket to the top but he’s not got those cards this time.

Sun Saturn is tasked with building their ego up from nothing and in spite of oppression. If they do this, things go well.  If they fail they’ve got to spend the rest of their lives tossing wet blankets (Saturn) on other people’s egos and shine (Sun) so others can be as miserable as they are.

One thing I notice is anyone who has earned their self esteem NEVER, EVER impedes another person trying to earn theirs.  If you want to come up with a hallmark of a person with character, that right there should serve."

Wow. This is powerful. Take note, folks.

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Am still reading along (though not participating, really) with Elsa's Sun series class. Today's chart was someone she cited as being truly burdened and I freaked out for a few paragraphs assuming it was me. It wasn't me, but it was someone with Saturn opposing three planets and Elsa likened them to being the person who has to haul the bodies out of a hospice.

OUCH doesn't even begin to cover that one.

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I guess we all have our thoughts on who has a nasty chart. I think mine is pretty nasty what with all the Saturn and the T-square and the feminine planet hammering in it, and the Chiron (if you count in Juno there's yet another T-square there), but I tend to think the two guys I know with heavy oppositions in their charts (one has opposing stelliums, one guy has virtually all of his planets in Aquarius opposing one in Leo) out-nasty mine. And they do have a hard time.

This person has Saturn square Sun, Venus, Ascendant, and Mercury and thinks they have it worst off. Pat's response, however...

Jacy, please pardon my saying so, but this is far from the worst natal chart ever!

I’ve seen many more-challenging ones, starting with my own, which stumped even Rob Hand, arguably the greatest living astrologer on the planet. Not only do I have a fixed T-square in a sensitive spot, but I’ve got a Moon-Saturn square that has manifested in some most unpleasant ways. And just when I thought mine was the “worst ever,” I met a man with not one but two fixed T-squares, one of which virtually ensures that it will be nearly impossible for him to find a fulfilling, intimate relationship with a woman unless he is willing to do a ton of work … and we all know what people with a lot of fixed energy in their charts think about that!

Looking at it another way, “easy” charts aren’t necessarily desirable, either. Typically, people without some challenges in their charts (squares, oppositions, or difficult conjunctions) end up totally overwhelmed in a crisis and can’t cope. People with difficult charts learn to cope early and often, and if we are willing to do the work it takes to overcome these handicaps, we end up much stronger and wiser.

Wow. When Rob Hand freaks out at your chart...I am so wondering what the details of her T-square are now.

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   Sun-Saturn  

“When I was a kid, adults often told me I would be rich and famous some day. Apparently I was giving off some kind of ambition vibe early on. I think ambition is a genetic defect. You can’t have ambition unless you think there is something wrong with the way you are. Ambition is a state of feeling perpetually flawed.

By most objective standards, my career has gone well. By my internal standards, I am in a continuous state of not doing enough.” –Scott Adams, Dilbert creator.

You may have these feelings if you have:

• Any aspects in your chart that connect the Sun and Saturn (conjunct, sextile, trine, square, opposition, etc.)
• Capricorn emphasis in your chart
• Saturn in Leo
• Saturn in your fourth or tenth house.

Positive traits of Sun-Saturn connections:

• Very hard working and determined. Work rewards you when relationships don’t.
• Goal-oriented
• Inclined towards leadership or setting good examples for others.
• Ambitious.
• Loyal.

Negative traits of Sun-Saturn connections:

• Difficult childhood- parents, especially father, may have been disapproving/let you down in some way. May spend your entire life trying to get dad’s approval in some way. Felt insignificant as a child and the desire to BE significant drives you in adulthood.
• Grew up early- short/no childhood, bad things happened early on to force it.
• Lack of confidence, feel inadequate. Your very identity feels repressed.
• Emphasis on duty
• Depression-prone
• Can’t get away with anything!
• Difficulties in relating to men in general- especially “daddy issues”
• Really need to work for what you want.
• Some people may deny they have goals at all because they can’t deal with it if they fail at achieving them. Need to get started.

Poster children for Sun-Saturn:

• Scott Adams (Saturn opposite to Sun)
• Oprah Winfrey (Saturn square Sun/Venus)
• Wynonna Judd (Saturn square Sun)
• Arnold Schwartzenegger (Saturn conjunct Sun)

Synastry example: Patrick Swayze and Lisa Niemi (her sun trines his Saturn, his sun squares her Saturn).

Qualities of Sun/Saturn synastry:

• Sun person wants independence, ends up doing most of the compromising. Saturn person can be depressing to the Sun.
• Massive loyalty between the partners. Possible karmic ties, bond is hard to break. It’s like two souls have made a commitment to work on a lesson together/resolve an old issue. One feels responsible for the other- loves them enough to help them learn the hard lessons. There is a parent-child aspect to this on the psychological level.
• Saturn person admires the Sun person because the Sun person is happily living out what Saturn wishes they could. Saturn person offers guidance, security, and a sense of stability to the Sun person, and they can learn from the Sun how to act.
• The Saturn person can end up pushing the Sun down a path so they can live vicariously through them, or the Saturn person can squash the Sun person so they won’t outshine Saturn. Saturn needs to find their own purpose and joy instead.

Suggested Saturnian solutions to this problem:

• Try to examine and understand the relationship with your father, if possible. Work on healing it if possible. At the very least, see what went wrong and what you want to do differently to change it.
• You need to figure out how to control your own life and build your own sense of self. Others will not help you do this, so you need to work on independence and breaking ties with your family’s limitations.
• Develop your own sense of worth, rather than trying to fulfill someone else’s definition of it.
• Create your own masculine/masculine side identity, because you won’t learn how to do it from your dad.
• The Jupiter solution (Jupiter in Capricorn/10^th): Set goals, make an action plan, go after what you want.

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Here they are, for those not in attendance/who didn't get a printout. I'm printing one 2-sided page per entry just so it's not a monster post from hell.

Saturn Can Bite Me!

Characteristics, examples, and tips for dealing with

Saturn’s connection to your personal planets.

Notable quotes from astrologers on the subject:

• “Saturn always inclines toward the development of strength through isolation.”

--Liz Greene

•  “I don’t know any way of working with Saturn aspects except for the Saturn person, on one hand, to step back and get more detached about their behavior and their fears—it’s necessary for them to face their own fears, instead of trying to project their fears or insecurities onto the other person.” –Stephen Arroyo
• “Aries: You’ll never be brave enough. You’ll fail because you are afraid.

Cancer: You are not loveable enough. Mommy has every right to dislike you.

Leo: You can’t lead anything or anyone. You are wrong to believe that you could.

Capricorn: Daddy always said you’d never amount to anything. You are afraid he is right.” –Beth Turnage.

• “It may be that the path of developing a fully conscious relationship is as valid a spiritual discipline as the path of meditation or yoga—and that, as it is considerably more difficult, its rewards may be proportionally greater in terms of being able to overcome at least the sense of separateness…Perhaps those who are “Saturn-prone” in their relationships sense this, and this is the best path for them.” –Liz Greene
• “It’s true if someone has their Saturn in aspect to one of your planets (particularly the personal planets: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus and Mars), they will have some authority over you. They may be older, more experienced, more educated or whatever form this takes but you can’t tell from the chart how they might express this “advantage.” Will they be a mentor, an oppressor or a combination of those?” –Elsa Panizzon.

General suggestions for handling Saturn that apply to everybody:

• Therapy. Yes, that means you.
• Don’t count on others to solve your emotional problems—it is up to you to do it.
• Don’t listen to what everyone else says and does to figure out what you should be saying and doing. You need to find your own way.

• The “midpoint method:” Find the midpoint between Saturn and the personal planet(s) bugging you, and note its sign and house. Base your solution on what that empty house indicates.
• The “Jupiter method:” Look for where your Jupiter is in your chart by sign and house, and use the traits there to compensate. (More on this below for each one.)
• “Study the natal charts of famous people who have aspects similar to yours. If you have access to a database like AstroDataBank, you can sort by aspects, and find, for example, many famous people who have (or had) Venus in hard aspect to Saturn. Read their biographies, indentify this archetypal pattern and see how they dealt with it. (I will admit that I have not practiced what I preach here, but I think it can open up possibilities for you.”)” –Jeffrey Kishner. Cafeastrology.com also lists celebrities with natal aspects (see online bibliography for the links).

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I'll be posting the notes from the presentation I am doing on Monday at Pantheacon here. But since the infinitely long bibliography is already done, I'm posting it first for anyone who needs some Saturnian references.

Bibliography:

Books used to create this presentation:

• Saturn: A New Look at an Old Devil by Liz Greene.
• The Inner Planets by Liz Greene and Howard Sasportas.
• Relating by Liz Greene
• Linda Goodman's Relationship Signs by Linda Goodman and Carolyn Reynolds
• Past Life Astrology by Judy Hall
• Intimate Relationships: The Astrology of Attraction (edited by Joan McEvers). References "Affinities" by Richard Roess.
• Relationships and Life Cycles by Stephen Arroyo
• Planets: The Astrological Tools (edited by Joan McEvers). References "Venus" by Robert Glasscock, "Mars" by Johanna Mitchell, "Saturn" by Gina Ceaglio
• Finding Success in the Horoscope by Jackie Slevin
• Web of Relationships: Spiritual, Karmic and Psychological Bonds (edited by Joan McEvers. References "Child and Parent" by Cornelia Hansen and "Astrology and Past Life Relationships" by Bob Mulligan.
• Astrology for Women (edited by Gloria Star). References "On Singleness: Choosing To Be Me" by Madalyn Hillis-Deneen, "The Impact of Self-Esteem" by Ronnie Gale Dreyer
• Houses: A Contemporary Guide by Gwyneth Bryan.
• Karmic Astrology: Past Lives, Present Loves by Ruth Aharoni
• The Art of Predictive Astrology by Carol Rushman
• Astrology, Karma and Transformation by Stephen Arroyo
• Aspects of Astrology by Sue Tompkins
• Synastry: Understanding the Astrology of Relationships by Rod Suskin.
  

Articles:

• Article in Mountain Astrologer Dec 2006/Jan 2007- "Jupiter: Your Child's Key To Success" by Doria Gambino.
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2009/02/08/demystifying-astrology-saturn-in-synastry-mentor-or-oppressor/
• http://cafeastrology.com/karmicrelationshipskarma.html
• http://cafeastrology.com/relationship_potential.html
• http://cafeastrology.com/articles/saturninsynastry.html
• http://www.cafeastrology.com/synastry/venus_saturn_aspects.html
• http://www.cafeastrology.com/synastry/mars_saturn_aspects.html
  
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/10/09/open-question-saturn-in-the-7th-house-would-you-marry-them-how-popular-is-real-love-anyway
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/14/am-i-destined-to-be-unloved-venus-in-scorpio-square-saturn-ruling-the-7th-house/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/08/05/open-question-regarding-transits-to-the-natal-chart-saturn-square-venus-specifically
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/15/astrology-and-love-venus-saturn-in-relationship-delay-and-deprivation-there-is-more-to-the-story
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/18/venus-and-saturn-in-aspect-and-the-reality-of-love-plus-pisces-imagination-and-transcendence
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/23/astrology-and-love-and-loneliness-taking-the-heat-and-standing-up-for-your-friends/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2006/06/17/will-i-find-my-soulmate-venus-saturn-conjunction/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/07/26/astrology-and-children-sun-conjunct-saturn-9-years-old-what-did-you-tell-him/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/07/26/astrology-and-children-what-if-your-child-has-difficult-aspects-in-their-chart-like-mars-pluto-suggesting-sexual-abuse-and-the-like/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/06/07/sun-conjunct-saturn-all-grown-up-at-8-years-old/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/02/18/21-years-old-and-never-had-a-boyfriend-taurus-sun-opposite-saturn-in-scorpio/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/09/14/humility-its-attractive-and-the-bad-reputation-of-mars-in-aspect-to-saturn-in-astrology/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/11/23/astrology-and-relationship-too-old-to-leap-redux-saturn-in-aspect-to-mars-in-synastry-happy-capricorn-etc/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/10/19/astrology-and-the-cock-blocking-phenomena-saturn-in-aspect-to-mars/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/06/astrology-energy-mars-and-violence-in-nature/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/01/15/23-year-old-virgin-aries-sun-scorpio-rising/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2006/12/31/astro-twins-the-soldier-and-the-salesman-mars-and-saturn-in-aspect-2/
• http://www.astrologyexplored.com/the-astrology-of-saturn-fear-and-loathing-not-just-in-vegas/
• http://cosmicguidelinesblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/looking-for-partnership-saturn-way.html
• http://sasstrology.com/2008/07/how-to-change-stuck-relational-patterns.html
• http://astrotribe.tribe.net/thread/79e3af8e-f2e4-4fd0-b294-0639b3ccac5b
  

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(God, I so need to work on my presentation right now. Nowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. Sigh.)

Anyhoo...

“My boyfriend has Saturn conjunct my Sun. Will he hold me back?”

He may but he may also be the best thing that ever happened to you. It’s true if someone has their Saturn in aspect to one of your planets (particularly the personal planets: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and Mars), they will have some authority over you.

They may be older, more experienced, more educated or whatever form this takes but you can’t tell from the chart how they might express this “advantage”. Will they be a mentor, an oppressor or a combination of those?

Also, this aspect works in reverse. Saturn tends to feel old and insecure at least at times so the young upstart (you) may trigger these feelings.

Ultimately the onus is on the Saturn person to act responsibly and “do the right thing”. How well people manage this can be determined by their maturity level which has ve ry little to do with age. My 9 year old son restrains himself (Saturn) while his friend and peer oppresses (Saturn) his younger sisters so just keep that mind when you run into this situation in synastry. Are you being supported… or crushed?

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You may recall yesterday when I was talking about this book and mentioned the Chiron is an unfixable wound thing.

Well, that night I was in a car with a friend of mine whose life is going to crap. She's got a bad family situation that she is utterly trapped in, and on top of that, her job has gone to hell due to a crazy, unpleasable boss. She is the butt monkey there and that's all there is to it. She's pretty well near nuclear meltdown and is fed up with her current career, but cannot afford to lose her job because there's kids and a husband who's job hunting.

The first half hour or so that I see her is just kind of post-work meltdown time, and during that she was saying that she thought she was just broken and unfixable and there's no way to fix yourself. That she used to think if you prayed hard enough and did enough work on yourself to figure out why you were broken, that you could fix it. Except the prayer never worked and just because you know how you got broken doesn't mean that you know how to fix it.

I knew her birth date but was all, "What is your birth year?", because I HAD to go check her Chiron placement. She is not so much into the hippie crap as I am, so I didn't say anything much about astrology specifically, but I wanted to.

Well, she's got a stellium in Pisces opposing the Uranus/Pluto conjunction. And she's got the Sun and Saturn and Chiron all next to each other. As a Sun Chiron person, I related.

Wounded, indeed. Poor girl. I worry about her, but I don't see any way to fix her life either.

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