47 posts tagged “venus saturn”

Am still reading along (though not participating, really) with Elsa's Sun series class. Today's chart was someone she cited as being truly burdened and I freaked out for a few paragraphs assuming it was me. It wasn't me, but it was someone with Saturn opposing three planets and Elsa likened them to being the person who has to haul the bodies out of a hospice.

OUCH doesn't even begin to cover that one.

So I'm reading this and the following comments. Including one that said, "And I refer to "Return of Saturn" as Gwen's "Gavin Pleeease Marry Me" album." Since god knows I know all the signs of codependent "marry me, marry me, marry meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" in astrology from firsthand familial experience...

I had to check: nothing in the 7th house according to profile #1 and moon in 7th according to this one, but we can prove that yes, she does have Venus Saturn.

I guess we all have our thoughts on who has a nasty chart. I think mine is pretty nasty what with all the Saturn and the T-square and the feminine planet hammering in it, and the Chiron (if you count in Juno there's yet another T-square there), but I tend to think the two guys I know with heavy oppositions in their charts (one has opposing stelliums, one guy has virtually all of his planets in Aquarius opposing one in Leo) out-nasty mine. And they do have a hard time.

This person has Saturn square Sun, Venus, Ascendant, and Mercury and thinks they have it worst off. Pat's response, however...

Jacy, please pardon my saying so, but this is far from the worst natal chart ever!

I’ve seen many more-challenging ones, starting with my own, which stumped even Rob Hand, arguably the greatest living astrologer on the planet. Not only do I have a fixed T-square in a sensitive spot, but I’ve got a Moon-Saturn square that has manifested in some most unpleasant ways. And just when I thought mine was the “worst ever,” I met a man with not one but two fixed T-squares, one of which virtually ensures that it will be nearly impossible for him to find a fulfilling, intimate relationship with a woman unless he is willing to do a ton of work … and we all know what people with a lot of fixed energy in their charts think about that!

Looking at it another way, “easy” charts aren’t necessarily desirable, either. Typically, people without some challenges in their charts (squares, oppositions, or difficult conjunctions) end up totally overwhelmed in a crisis and can’t cope. People with difficult charts learn to cope early and often, and if we are willing to do the work it takes to overcome these handicaps, we end up much stronger and wiser.

Wow. When Rob Hand freaks out at your chart...I am so wondering what the details of her T-square are now.

Susan Boyle, apparently. No surprise there.

I may or may not have posted this before, but I'll post it again just in case.

"And yes, I DO read your posts and they always cheer me up and make it very difficult for me to feel alone and uncared for, which I generally try to do every day."  -Carrie Fisher (Moon opposite Saturn, Venus quintile Saturn)

look to the Saturn.

Venus-Saturn  

“Like the people who can just fuck and move on, and the people like me who, like, once you fuck somebody, you want to marry them. I’ve never had a one night stand in my life. First time I came to it, I wound up marrying the chick so it doesn’t count.” –Kevin Smith

You may have these feelings if you have:

• Any aspects in your chart that connect Venus and Saturn (conjunct, sextile, trine, square, opposition, etc.)
• Capricorn emphasis in your chart
• Saturn in Libra
• Saturn in your fifth or seventh house

Positive traits of Venus-Saturn connections:

• Loyal (perhaps overly so)
• Responsible in relationship (again, perhaps overly so)
• Faithful
• When you commit, you stick to it.
• Can provide real hard core love when in relationship.

Negative traits of Venus-Saturn connections:

• Gets rejected in love early on, is very painfully wounded by it, has a really slow recovery time. Most likely, this happens every time you get dumped.
• BIG rejection issues here, lots of loneliness. You want LOTS of proof of love.
• Tend to get into relationships because they are stable, or for money, or end up with a partner who brings burden/hardship into the relationship, rather than for love. Or you pick people who you “know” it won’t work out with.
• Duty is an issue- you will stick with a relationship even after the love is gone.
• You either tend to be really slutty OR celibate on a regular basis OR unable to do one-night stands (see quote) and need to commit once you start dating, ASAP.
• Difficulties in relating to women in general- especially on the level of femininity.
• Women in particular may have femininity/nurturing issues- either overcompensate or avoid anything feminine. Tend to feel “ugly.” Also, may either want no kids or tons of kids to avoid/make up for their own childhood. (Same as Moon there.). Men may feel like women “trap” them.
• Love is not free and easy for you- there always is a price to pay, and your relationships are a struggle when you are in them.
• May need to wait until you are at least over 40 to have love work out for you.

Poster children for Venus-Saturn:

• Tim Gunn (Saturn trine Venus)
• Gloria Steinem (Saturn conjunct Venus)
• Princess Diana (Saturn trine Venus)
• Kevin Smith (Saturn trine Venus)

Synastry example: Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes (his Saturn squares her Venus)

Qualities of Venus-Saturn synastry:

• Can be a binding tie, but comes with its share of challenges. This relationship will be about commitment, loyalty, and responsibility, not to mention mutual dependence. You are here to discover the reality of the relationship. This pairing may end up miserable or manage to have an honest relationship.
• Saturn person may help stabilize Venus’s emotions. They feel responsible for Venus, in a parent-like way. Venus can appreciate Saturn’s guidance.
• This is a need-based relationship that may bind past the love’s duration. Emphasizes marriage in particular “to make sure you don’t leave.”
• The Venus person may feel “lorded over” and restrained by Saturn, who criticizes and doesn’t seem to approve of them too much. But both sides can tend to try to restrict the other’s freedom, and insist on attention too much.

Suggested Saturnian solutions to this problem:

• Therapy. Big time. This one applies to everyone, really, but especially you guys.
• Need to tell yourself that you are worthy of love (easier said than done…)
• Work on how you associate love with pain, and try to change your beliefs about that. You may need to break ties with the people who have embodied these beliefs. “For someone with Saturn square Venus, such separations are practically required before s/he can change belief systems.” –Robert Glasscock.
• Make yourself whole. A romantic partner will not be able to do that for you.
• Your goal is to feel safe enough to at least drop some of your defenses with others, especially in relationships.

• Women in particular need to figure out your femininity for yourself, NOT by going off of female stereotypes. Figure out what aspects of femininity you are okay with and want to practice, and try not to judge yourself so hard for not checking off every box on the “What Women Stereotypically Do” list.
• The Jupiter solution (Jupiter in Leo/Libra/5^th/7^th): Team up with others, be outgoing. Get creative with decorating.
• Try manifesting a partner for yourself and see if that works for you. “Ask the universe to send you a real love, not a fantasy love. Ask for something singular and hand-picked to challenge you. Then commit to doing absolutely whatever it takes to feed and maintain the relationship. And accept that pain is part of the deal. With a chart like yours, relationship at times will be absolutely grueling. You will be made to face your fear when you are scared to death but I can tell you firsthand the reward is in proportion.”—Elsa Panizzon.

Here they are, for those not in attendance/who didn't get a printout. I'm printing one 2-sided page per entry just so it's not a monster post from hell.

Saturn Can Bite Me!

Characteristics, examples, and tips for dealing with

Saturn’s connection to your personal planets.

Notable quotes from astrologers on the subject:

• “Saturn always inclines toward the development of strength through isolation.”

--Liz Greene

•  “I don’t know any way of working with Saturn aspects except for the Saturn person, on one hand, to step back and get more detached about their behavior and their fears—it’s necessary for them to face their own fears, instead of trying to project their fears or insecurities onto the other person.” –Stephen Arroyo
• “Aries: You’ll never be brave enough. You’ll fail because you are afraid.

Cancer: You are not loveable enough. Mommy has every right to dislike you.

Leo: You can’t lead anything or anyone. You are wrong to believe that you could.

Capricorn: Daddy always said you’d never amount to anything. You are afraid he is right.” –Beth Turnage.

• “It may be that the path of developing a fully conscious relationship is as valid a spiritual discipline as the path of meditation or yoga—and that, as it is considerably more difficult, its rewards may be proportionally greater in terms of being able to overcome at least the sense of separateness…Perhaps those who are “Saturn-prone” in their relationships sense this, and this is the best path for them.” –Liz Greene
• “It’s true if someone has their Saturn in aspect to one of your planets (particularly the personal planets: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus and Mars), they will have some authority over you. They may be older, more experienced, more educated or whatever form this takes but you can’t tell from the chart how they might express this “advantage.” Will they be a mentor, an oppressor or a combination of those?” –Elsa Panizzon.

General suggestions for handling Saturn that apply to everybody:

• Therapy. Yes, that means you.
• Don’t count on others to solve your emotional problems—it is up to you to do it.
• Don’t listen to what everyone else says and does to figure out what you should be saying and doing. You need to find your own way.

• The “midpoint method:” Find the midpoint between Saturn and the personal planet(s) bugging you, and note its sign and house. Base your solution on what that empty house indicates.
• The “Jupiter method:” Look for where your Jupiter is in your chart by sign and house, and use the traits there to compensate. (More on this below for each one.)
• “Study the natal charts of famous people who have aspects similar to yours. If you have access to a database like AstroDataBank, you can sort by aspects, and find, for example, many famous people who have (or had) Venus in hard aspect to Saturn. Read their biographies, indentify this archetypal pattern and see how they dealt with it. (I will admit that I have not practiced what I preach here, but I think it can open up possibilities for you.”)” –Jeffrey Kishner. Cafeastrology.com also lists celebrities with natal aspects (see online bibliography for the links).

I'll be posting the notes from the presentation I am doing on Monday at Pantheacon here. But since the infinitely long bibliography is already done, I'm posting it first for anyone who needs some Saturnian references.

Bibliography:

Books used to create this presentation:

• Saturn: A New Look at an Old Devil by Liz Greene.
• The Inner Planets by Liz Greene and Howard Sasportas.
• Relating by Liz Greene
• Linda Goodman's Relationship Signs by Linda Goodman and Carolyn Reynolds
• Past Life Astrology by Judy Hall
• Intimate Relationships: The Astrology of Attraction (edited by Joan McEvers). References "Affinities" by Richard Roess.
• Relationships and Life Cycles by Stephen Arroyo
• Planets: The Astrological Tools (edited by Joan McEvers). References "Venus" by Robert Glasscock, "Mars" by Johanna Mitchell, "Saturn" by Gina Ceaglio
• Finding Success in the Horoscope by Jackie Slevin
• Web of Relationships: Spiritual, Karmic and Psychological Bonds (edited by Joan McEvers. References "Child and Parent" by Cornelia Hansen and "Astrology and Past Life Relationships" by Bob Mulligan.
• Astrology for Women (edited by Gloria Star). References "On Singleness: Choosing To Be Me" by Madalyn Hillis-Deneen, "The Impact of Self-Esteem" by Ronnie Gale Dreyer
• Houses: A Contemporary Guide by Gwyneth Bryan.
• Karmic Astrology: Past Lives, Present Loves by Ruth Aharoni
• The Art of Predictive Astrology by Carol Rushman
• Astrology, Karma and Transformation by Stephen Arroyo
• Aspects of Astrology by Sue Tompkins
• Synastry: Understanding the Astrology of Relationships by Rod Suskin.
  

Articles:

• Article in Mountain Astrologer Dec 2006/Jan 2007- "Jupiter: Your Child's Key To Success" by Doria Gambino.
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2009/02/08/demystifying-astrology-saturn-in-synastry-mentor-or-oppressor/
• http://cafeastrology.com/karmicrelationshipskarma.html
• http://cafeastrology.com/relationship_potential.html
• http://cafeastrology.com/articles/saturninsynastry.html
• http://www.cafeastrology.com/synastry/venus_saturn_aspects.html
• http://www.cafeastrology.com/synastry/mars_saturn_aspects.html
  
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/10/09/open-question-saturn-in-the-7th-house-would-you-marry-them-how-popular-is-real-love-anyway
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/14/am-i-destined-to-be-unloved-venus-in-scorpio-square-saturn-ruling-the-7th-house/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/08/05/open-question-regarding-transits-to-the-natal-chart-saturn-square-venus-specifically
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/15/astrology-and-love-venus-saturn-in-relationship-delay-and-deprivation-there-is-more-to-the-story
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/18/venus-and-saturn-in-aspect-and-the-reality-of-love-plus-pisces-imagination-and-transcendence
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/23/astrology-and-love-and-loneliness-taking-the-heat-and-standing-up-for-your-friends/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2006/06/17/will-i-find-my-soulmate-venus-saturn-conjunction/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/07/26/astrology-and-children-sun-conjunct-saturn-9-years-old-what-did-you-tell-him/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/07/26/astrology-and-children-what-if-your-child-has-difficult-aspects-in-their-chart-like-mars-pluto-suggesting-sexual-abuse-and-the-like/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/06/07/sun-conjunct-saturn-all-grown-up-at-8-years-old/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/02/18/21-years-old-and-never-had-a-boyfriend-taurus-sun-opposite-saturn-in-scorpio/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2008/09/14/humility-its-attractive-and-the-bad-reputation-of-mars-in-aspect-to-saturn-in-astrology/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/11/23/astrology-and-relationship-too-old-to-leap-redux-saturn-in-aspect-to-mars-in-synastry-happy-capricorn-etc/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/10/19/astrology-and-the-cock-blocking-phenomena-saturn-in-aspect-to-mars/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/08/06/astrology-energy-mars-and-violence-in-nature/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/01/15/23-year-old-virgin-aries-sun-scorpio-rising/
• http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2006/12/31/astro-twins-the-soldier-and-the-salesman-mars-and-saturn-in-aspect-2/
• http://www.astrologyexplored.com/the-astrology-of-saturn-fear-and-loathing-not-just-in-vegas/
• http://cosmicguidelinesblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/looking-for-partnership-saturn-way.html
• http://sasstrology.com/2008/07/how-to-change-stuck-relational-patterns.html
• http://astrotribe.tribe.net/thread/79e3af8e-f2e4-4fd0-b294-0639b3ccac5b